Mesa CEO blames Captains, unions for low pay
 

Mesa?s Ornstein Expresses ?Disgust? with Washington | Aviation International News

Some highlights from the RAA convention in St Louis and specifically from Mesa CEO:

- Blames congress for "One Level of Safety" requring 135 operators to comply with 121 maintenance.

- Blames union and greediness of Captains for low-entry level pay and claims FOs at Mesa average $45,000 a year.

- Claims "race to the bottom" is offensive to him and not true

- Says young pilots are going to Europe to fly right seat in an A320 with 250 hours and asks if it is good enough for them, why isn't it good enough for us.

Discuss

This guy shifting the blame to the unions and Captains is offensive to me. Mesa is very involved in the 'race to the bottom' and its not the crews faults, its Ornstein's fault. Look at what his hiring practices have been reduced to, a phone call, so he can staff his insanely low bid for United 175.

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/b...0220246975.jpg

Yes, let's listen to a convicted felon who has exploited his labor force for years rail on "income equality" and how making commuters meet 121 standards put Dornier, Shorts and British Aerospace out of business.

Because the Do328/328JET, 330/360, Jetstream 31/41, B146 and ATP were airframes highly desirable during the explosive growth of "commuters" in the 90s.

Is this thing just a rant fest for them. Are members of Congress there, or are they trying to work out a plan for their lobbyists?

Yes, those greedy unions, actually demanding to be paid as much as a copier repairman.

How senior is the avg FO at Mesa to make 45k? And that is till laughable wage for highly skilled and responsible labor.

250 hr FO's in Europe are called 2nd officers and just occupy the seat during cruise. Is he willing to hire somebody to do just that on a 1.5 hr flight? Those inexperienced crew sent AF 447 to the bottom of the South Atlantic when they failed to respond correctly to a blocked pitot tube.

He offends my intelligence with his crap.

unfortunately, in the current economic environment, the public only sees "CEO" and "congress interfering with ability to make money." They see lost jobs, less access to their home airport and stock market losses. Very few care about his history as a felon or the details behind the older airframes going away.

Absolutely. "Race to the bottom" is common labor rhetoric, and its existence is dubious. Read about it. We can never have a meaningful conversation about pay until "race to the bottom" is erased from the discussion.

Mesa FOs, or any other regional FO for that matter, will never be paid more with crusty old lifers at the top demanding their $120k. Bring wages at the top end down, and raise them at the bottom. If you choose to make a career out of flying for a regional airline, I shouldn't have to suffer the consequences.

Orstein is right when he says he's paying enough "as long as they keep showing up".

Come to Mesa. Fly your a$$ off, then GTFO as quickly as possible.

In regard to the weird CBreezy Mesa bashing: No explanation....

Again, GlobalExpress ( the pilot and APC member) infuses a little dose of reality in the comments section of this article. Global, I appreciate your tenacity in getting the word out and fighting back against the wave of propaganda coming from the likes of Ornstein.

Seems the comment made is more accurate than anything JO said.

Global's comment makes zero good points, shows a total lack of understanding of the issue and is embarrassing. And it starts with "he-he", which might as well say "what follows isn't worth reading".

First of all, I have no dog in this fight.

That being said... it's not the airlines, Major, regional, or otherwise, faults that guys and gals have six figure debt. It's just not their problem. There's plenty of people applying for and able to do that job without that kind of ridiculous debt. Most of them are just older and paid as they flew or had Mommy and Daddy foot the bill.

Do I think regionals oughta pay more? Absolutely. But the argument used above that personal debt and bad life choices are somehow any employers problem is just idiotic.

That is all.

(I'll grab my flame shield now)

Ornstein seems to be in agreement with Moak that pilots are going overseas to fly. This contradicts Bryan Bedford's testimony to congress that wasn't happening much.

I really get a little disgusted listening to these guys, politicians, talk about ‘race to the bottom’ because if we are in a race to the bottom, you know who we’re going to find down there? Congress,” quipped Ornstein


For once in his miserable life, ornstain is right!!!!! The only thing more pathetic than him is congress.

So lets b*tch on here some more and see where that takes y'all.

These threads are almost as rediculous as some of the remarks the CEO's make.

Why?

Because everybody on here continues to complain about the same thing over and over again and nothing is done.

Look at slavery, I don't care what the race...

Nothing changed until the people start standing up and speaking up for themselves.

I mean congrats to people voting no to concessions, but that's not enough. For the regional pilots on here, if you don't like it, why don't you band together make a website to get people together, take a nice trip to Washington D.C. like the good old days with picket fences or whatever people do these days and let your voices be heard?

I mean hey, I think you'd have more than enough qualified pilots not working at the moment that would be able to make the trip... Just an idea, an opinion....

But what do I know I'm just a lowly CFI...

Care to make counter-points here or on the article page, then? I bet we are all eager to hear the truth.

Not only was Global's comment a 100% accurate representation of what Johnny-O has done to this Industry (he forgot to mention the unlawful undoing of Aloha and his failed hostile takeover of ACA) but it warrants a reprint. RV5M's blatant ignorance to the truth has to make one question his underlying motivation to participate on these forums.

Exceptional post, Global.

He-He. Ornstein is "disgusted" with the race to the bottom? Is he serious? Guys like him and the way they have treated their pilots ARE the reason why young people and career changers don't want to become pilots anymore. For example, Ornstein created an airline called Freedom Air several years back? Why? So he could whipsaw Mesa Air pilot groups againt Freedom pilots in order to drive down pilot wages- wages that were already so low many of his First Officers could qualify for food stamps. If you read the pilot/aviaiton forums, Ornstein is allegedly one of the most depised regional airline CEOs out there.

And Johnnie O, it's not for your unions or your Captains to fix the problem you and your ilk have created. When there was a nursing shortage in the mid 2000's, hospital administrators didn't go around asking physicians to take pay cuts in order to fund higher nursing pay. They recognized reality (unlike you), and took the appropriate steps to attract new nurses into the industry. They raised pay. They gave them signing bonuses. They gave them perks like relocation assistance. What has the regional airline industry done besides cry in the press about their lack of ability to attract and retain pilots? Well, pretty much nothing. Entry level regional airline pay still hovers in the low 20's. A FEW regional airlines offer some meager signing bonuses, but it isn't enough. Stop blaming everyone else for the problem YOU created. Pay pilots a living wage, and they will come, eventually.

And Johnnie O., if you want to talk about "income disparity," let's talk income disparity. There are WAY too many links to post here, but Google "CEO income equality" and then get back to me about THAT topic. Talk about being out of touch. So yeah, you're right. Us pilots are not concerned about the same "income equality" that you CEOs are. You want to attract entry level First Officers? Don't look for other employees to subsidize the solution to YOUR problem. Pay a market wage, just lke every other industry has to do. Or perhaps examine the paychecks of you and your senior executives and start making cuts there.

The One Level of Safety rules did not kill turboprops. The consumer did. Passengers DO NOT LIKE FLYING ON TURBOPROP AIRCRAFT. You know that. I know that. That's what killed those types of aircraft. That's why Mesa doesn't fly turboprop aircraft. That transition started with Comair's initial success with the 50 seat RJ in the early 90's and it went on from there as THE CONSUMER drove the change from turboprops to turbojets. So yeah, some of those manufacturers were hurt in the transition from turboprop to turbojets, but from those failed companies came new ones. So Pratt, Garrett, and Honeywell make products for turbojets now instead of turboprops. The good companies adapt to change. The bad ones fail.

And BTW Johnnie O, it's NOT OK to have a 250 hour pilot in the seat of any passenger carrying aircraft. Just like it's not OK to replace you and your peer CEOs with the "best and the brightest" management school graduates with the ink still wet on their diplomas. Sure Mesa, for example, could save a TON of money by replacing you with a brand new, smart, college graduate, but that's probably not wise, right? No sane board is going to take a young, inexpericed yet "bright" management student and let him/her run a multi-million operation to save a few bucks on CEO compensation. Same rules apply when it comes to replacing placing people in SAFETY SENSITIVE POSITIONS like pilots. How is that difficult to understand? Again, a brand new, 250 hour pilot HAS NO BUSINESS in the cockpit of a US airliner just because a few foreign airlines use low-time pilots as "cruise" pilots (they don't do take-offs or landings) on widebody jets.

In conclusion, John, instead of whing on the mike at you and your peers' little get together, you should have been collectively been trying to COME UP WITH A PLAN to fix your pilot retention and attraction problems. Not complaining about federal air regulations. Not blaming unions for your pilot salary problems. You should have all gotten together and realized that hey, paying entry level pilots with six-figure debt less than what a fast food manager earns probably isn't a long term solution to the pilot retention problem you guys face.

He actually makes a valid point. "Captain" pay should be capped around 65k and FO's should start around 50k. There's no reason to reward lifers for their career failures. Get hired, get your time, gtfo. It's how it's always been.

Regionals with more than 50% of the flying is not how it's always been. The only constant in business is change. The flying public demand better safety, also not "how it's always been". With far more pilots vying for the sacred legacy jobs than can ever fill them, the industry has some tough choices to make, or face extreme downsizing.

What are you saying? All regional lifers have skeletons in the closet? They all screwed up in one way or the other and its entirely their fault they didn't get to a major? I for one am not bashing someone making 100k a year and getting 15 days off a month. But i suppose you will. :rolleyes:

JO does have a legit point...

Unions, not management, primarily determine how the pilot compensation pie is split up.

At mainline senior pilots fly bigger airplanes, which generate more revenue so it's reasonable they get paid more.

At regionals that model barely applies, so the income split has more to do with who's been around long enough to have control over the system. If senior pilots had their way new hires would get paid nothing at all, but the left lateral limit on that is that the company knows they have to pay at least barely enough to actually attract new hires. I've seen the company negotiate increased new-hire rates but I have never seen a pilot group make a big issue out of that. The pilots seem to feel that new-hires are the company's problem.

You seem to have as much of an "obsession" with cutting professional flight crew pay as management does! If you're not management, how about realizing that no regional pilot is overpaid, and try to help raise the bar for all pilots instead of taking management's side?

But management decides how much pie is available. All they need is to up the size of the pie, and the issues go away.

Does he mention how he lost 80+ million in Hawaii.
Jack ass!!!!!!

Yes, they control the whole pie. But get real...if you made the pie bigger, the senior pilots would NOT turn that excess over to junior pilots or new-hires. Anybody who's been around longer than a few months knows that :rolleyes:

I say to expect the 1500 hr rule to be changed really soon. Can't say when. One of the countries Thailand or Cambodia decided to copy the US model and match the 1500 hr rule. It was just rescinded due to the damage it caused to their industry. I am curious to see what happens when the summer hits in the US and the fecal sprays in all directions.
Anyone tried jumpseating lately? It's a mad house! I have watched rev pax get placed on standby because of ac/ crew availability. The whole industry is lobbying against the rule and those guys will win out.

I'm not saying every lifer is a total screw up, but by definition, a lifer at a regional is a failed pilot career. Lifers take an excessive piece of the pie which is subsidized by the low FO pay. Taken to the extreme, look at the actions of the lifers at RAH. The unbridled greed displayed by the seniority grab at Frontier was unparalleled in the industry.

Oh to be born with with a silver spoon, make EVERY SINGLE life choice correctly, marry a rich girl, and have good timing.

I didn't start flying until I had a family, and paid for it out of pocket with no loans. I stayed at jobs that allowed me to actually raise my family, and then came to a regional just in time to be denied upgrade because of 9/11. When I did hold CA (at the 8 yr. mark) I got displaced the day after finishing IOE.

I may yet get to a major, or I may retire at a regional. Either way I hope to not fly with gilded wonder boys (guess who?). My success or failure is not defined by you. I'll let my wife, son and grandsons decide after I'm gone.

And pilots continue to not only work there but beat a path to his door, continuing to put gobs of money in his pocket.

I doubt that. The Colgan lobby is far too strong for it to just be rescinded.

It's not Ornsteins fault that our contract sucks, it is ours (the pilots) fault. We voted it in. The fault is squarely on our shoulders.

Congress didn't play a part in deciding the amount of hours that can be credited off the 1500 total, that rests squarely with the FAA. The FAA decided this path all on their own, it remains to be seen if they make an adjustment or not.

Yes, one of the more idiotic statements ever made on APC.

Incredibly ignorant. It hasn't always been 50% of the flying was done by regionals. Infact in the beginning of the decade I think it was around 5%. Either way, people can't gtfo if there is no where to go. It is the majors that turned regional flying into a career decision instead of a stepping stone by shifting more flying from mainline to the regionals.

I hate to tell you this, but airline flying is a pyramid. Not everyone is going to get on with the majors, no matter how many pilots they hire.

Wrong. Some people just want to live where they can fly. Horizon guys like PDX. SKW guys love SLC. Why should they be denied a living wage so YOU can have their left seat? Who's the greedy one in that case?

Exactly my point. There are guys who retired after a 20-25 year military career and want/need nothing more than Regional Captain pay to have a happy, fulfilling 2nd career...especially if they can live/work in base.

Correct on all points. It amazes me how EVERY young stud ASSUMES they'll make it to the majors.

Hehe..dang man..what you be smokin there bucko? Generation entitlement much? That's some first class bafoonery paired with a nice showing of jackassery kid...

You may want to see a surgeon and have that spoon removed before you end up swallowing it.

MESA CEO isn't the only one...
 

It appears Republic's Bryan Bedford received his copy of the RAA talking points in the mail so that all of them can be on the same band wagon:

Republic?s Bedford Calls for New Pilot Pay Model | Aviation International News

I'm gonna have to go ahead and sort of AGREE with you there! With one exception, of course: if, from the get-go, your career goal was to be a regional lifer.
In my case, from my first fight lesson I wanted to fly for a legacy. Therefore if I never leave RAH, I consider MY career a failure and myself a loser. I

Please don't feed the Trolls or they'll start charging more to cross the bridge...

I am an outsider, I fly alot - and I think you guys fighting each other and taking sides against one another is VERY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

It should not be a question of take money away from Capt's to give to FO's, both of which have a professional responsibility for the safety of paying customers, other employees, and expensive assets of either their employer's company or that of their employer's customer. It should be an effort to stand up for an acceptable wage / work rules for both pilots. If increases are made in the size of the whole pie and it is disproportionately given to captains, then indeed that should be dealt with internally, but the existing discrepancy has more to do with inordinately low FO pay, not exorbitantly high Capt pay.

I believe to have captains making six figures is OK, but to have FO's making $20k to $40k is NOT OK - my life and the other flying public deserves more "credit' than that. But, it is up to each of you as pilots and all of you as pilots to make the efforts necessary to educate both new pilots and the public.

That takes effort on many fronts - some will suffer, some will fail - but you have made some strides forward, do not allow those not aligned with your future progress to get you to fail due to in-fighting.

You as individual pilots have no direct control over the existence of regional airlines, or their business model. You can influence them of course, but where you have control is how you interact with each other, what you accept as pay and work rules, and how / where you communicate. I suggest you work toward making this an acceptable work wage and conditions, so that when conditions beyond your control make you a "regional lifer", then you can look back and realize that your llife and your career are distinctly different, and perhaps you can leave the career prospects better for those coming behind you.

Mr. Bedford said “I don’t think that model works and perhaps the next regional that figures out how to more rationalize pay between the two seats will be one of the winners in the future.”

But isn't that in direct contradiction to the whole reason regional airlines exist in the first place? So you can have different pay tiers for doing the same job as the legacies? You can't have your cake and eat it too because the real solution puts Mr. Bedford out of a job.

Maybe Mr. Bedford should have said this instead "I don't think that model works and perhaps the next major airline that figures out how to more rationalize pay between the larger and smaller aircraft types will be one of the winners in the future."

Having said that maybe Mr. Bedford would care to propose a new pay structure for parties to evaluate. I can't stand it when people do nothing but point out problems but refuse to offer a solution of their own.

Having said all this, I think his solution might be the only thing that saves Silver Airways from folding. It's too late for Great Lakes as they will likely fold before the end of this month.

GTFO becomes harder and harder, if pilots keep chasing upgrade and will take low pay just to move on, because the jobs to which you can move disappear. It is the conundrum that has been played so well against the pilots. Go to a crappy regional in hopes of getting out quickly, but instead the crappy regional expands because it's labor costs are so low. As this happens, mainline jobs shrink.

There used to be crappy and not so bad regionals to go to; now they all are crappy. How'd that GTFO strategy work?