Guard to the Regionals
 

I’m a guard F-16 guy and my full time seasoning orders are going to be ending here in a couple months and I’ll be going part time with the guard and looking to transition to the airline world and am seeking some advice and guidance.

In total I’ll have about 850 hours, 500 of which is PIC, and be 4-ship FL qualed when I go part time so obviously I’ll have to spend some time in the Regionals to build my hours for the majors. My ultimate goal is to get to the majors as quickly as I can.

The advice I’ve been given so far is to try and get on with a regional with the quickest upgrade to build my total PIC time.

As of right now that is going to be my plan going forward, in addition to staying sharp in the Viper.

Does anyone else have any additional advice or recommendations? Or something else I could be doing?

Any/all guidance is much appreciated

From what has been recommended in other threads, your plan seems good. When did you start UPT, just out of curiosity.

I started UPT back in Sept 15’ and graduated Oct 16’

So, finished FTU sometime in the Spring of 2017? Unless you had prior time, you must have flown your ass off in the last year or so. Any deployments in there or just normal training at home?

Yea, I finished FTU at the beginning of 2017. We got an upcoming deployment so I’ll get a good chunk of hours from that. But I have been flying a bunch. I pretty much volunteer for any additional flying opportunities and TDYs that I can, mostly just because I love to fly but getting the hours is nice too. I also work in the scheduling shop so I make sure to throw myself in as many lines as I can (especially when we’re hitting the tanker!)

I would be just a little bit more selective about regionals than "fastest upgrade". Some of them are pretty toxic work environments, and those are potentially more likely to get sideways if you do more than one weekend/month of mil, which would be a problem for you. You would win that battle, but you don't need the aggravation.

The good news is that upgrades are fast almost everywhere right now, so shoot for a regional with a junior pilot domicile very near your guard base (or co-located with if that's possible).

Do your homework before selecting any regional. Most of them will work you to the bone these days (pilot shortage), but some of them have truly toxic cultures... no point in subjecting yourself to that unnecessarily. Also ensure you understand their training program... some of them just throw ten candidates on the wall and hope a few stick. There's a lot of luck and personality involved in that sort of program, so no amount of work ethic or fighter pilot kung-fu will guarantee success (you don't need an FAA pink slip on your record obviously).

There have been a lot of threads here about this situation, so I’m trying to get some specific data points, so excuse my many questions.
How do you go from UPT graduation in Oct of 16 to finishing FTU in “at the beginning 2017”. When did you do IFF? Is F-16 FTU still around 6 months long? Can you be more specific about your actual timeline and when you returned to your unit to start MQT? Did you have any prior civilian hours before starting UPT?

Consider a regional with flow to a major, but not if it would make a difference about having to commute.

Joe

Thanks for the words. I’m 100% in agreement with you on choosing a regional based on domicile location. That’s also one of the biggest factors in my decision. As of right now I have a relatively short list of companies that I’m interested in, all of which have domiciles that are driving distance to my guard base.

No worries, and I apologies, I actually graduated UPT in 2015. I was wondering why my timeline wasn’t making sense in my head when I originally said 2016.

But here’s my approximate timeline

UPT: Sept 2014- Oct 2015
IFF: Feb 2016- Apr 2016
FTU: May 2016- Feb 2017
MQT: March 2017- Jun 2017

And the length of the FTU varies. My class did ours in ~8.5 Months but I have some bros whose class took them almost a year. It kinda varies based on the FTU base (at least it did when I was going through it) but in general I’d say the average was about 9-10 months.

I had about 100 hours and my PPL before going to UPT.

If you have any other questions let me know

In your case PIC time isn’t the biggest issue unless you’re shooting for FedEx/UPS. You need to get your Total time up. Go with the regional that offers the most stability/QOL close to you. Upgrade time at most places is under the 2-3 year point. Part 121 time in general will help beef up your resume.

Okay, that makes more sense. So, basically very close to 4 years from start of UPT to finishing up seasoning as a new 4FL. Probably on the faster side than others might experience, but should give someone considering this path an idea of a realistic timeline.
If you can get get hired with a regional and finish training with them by the end of the year, I'd say that would put you on track to have competitive total time in maybe 2 years (mid to late 2020?). If you want to go to a major that's still looking for the magic 1000 TPIC, it may take longer, depending on upgrades and how much ANG flying you can do.

At 500 PIC right now, it's going to be tough to get to 1000 very quickly just in the F-16 alone as a traditional guardsman. Numbers I usually saw as a part timer in a fighter were 150 a year, maybe 200 on a really good one (deployments, etc.). That's going to be especially true if you're going to spend a few months doing Indoc, Initial and IOE at an airline.
Try to find an easy commute if you can't find a local airline job. One leg if possible, same timezone or westbound.

Vice - all solo time, even while a student, counts as PIC.

Not saying you missed that but just a comment about oversights guys have done before. 750 military fighter + 100 civilian with 500 PIC seems slightly low on PIC ergo my comment about all solo time = PIC.

Low time fighter guys seem to get hired in the 1500 +/- range. IP might REALLY help. Guy I was helping got his IP qual and got called within two weeks. Roughly 1300 fighter + 800 civilian including 121 FO.

Grab a regional and fly your regional brains out. Your TT is probably you're biggest hurdle right now. 1000 hrs 121 FO, and another 100-200 hrs F-16, and I'd think you might be coming onto some radar screens of the hiring folks. At worst it's a three year stint. Cranking out 800+ hrs 121 and 100 hrs F-16 will get you to 3000 hrs in about 2.5 years. Even if it takes that long you'll be hired about 2-3 years younger than the average new hire. Every year you can advance the hiring date is worth over $500,000 in today's dollars at the end of your career. If 2,000 hrs TT and 1,000 hrs military is the trigger you'll hit that in about 1.5 hrs busting your butt at a regional. That's 32-33 yrs old? Younger? You're doing fine. Steady progress and minimize your non-flying time.

Push hard now. Get a regional close to you that allows you to bust a nut at the Guard and the regional. Take a breather once you're at your final job.

Opinion - I'd value 121 time over AD/TDY orders. Your checking on multiple clocks - total time, PIC, military time, TPIC, 121, and ultimately perhaps 121 PIC and IP qual. When do those various clocks cross over at the trigger that gets your resume pulled? I think we're all guessing on that answer. 1,5000 TT and 1,000 hrs military? Is a trigger 500 TPIC or 1,000? With how much TT to trigger an application review? What's the balance/trade off? Going on orders will net 150 hrs a year? That's about three years to get to the bottom new hire guy I've heard about. And he was an IP. Pure regional flying from now on? That would get you to 2,500 TT and no change to your military time in about 1.5 years, or about 2.5 years earlier than the 150 hrs/year pure military flying. If you're getting 200 hrs per year in the F-16 it's two years to match the bottom new hires resume. So it's the balance between the two clocks (jet fighter vs chunks of TT with a 121 job). But if you get a 400 hr F-16 six month deployment? I'd jump on that.

You're in a great spot. Make steady advances. Hate the regional job and hear about a cushy 777 job that would pay more? Stay at the regional. You'll probably lose 300-400 hrs during the time you're switching jobs and getting qualified. IMO that's time wasted since cranking out hours, and not chasing more pay or bigger jets, is what will get your application pulled. $.02

Good luck.

This isn't necessarily true. We're back to the constant discussion that we revisit about what is PIC defined by FAR or AFI and what airlines choose to call PIC for their application purposes.

When I applied to UAL, they only wanted winged time when you were signing for the aircraft (i.e. ultimately responsible for the flight).
So that ruled out all UPT time including solo and any two-seat flights during FTU with an IP on board.

The point is that your PIC total may differ from one airline to the next depending on what they want you to use as well as if they allow a per sortie conversion factor. They also know how the training programs in the military are conducted. So, if they want PIC time for when you were the responsible pilot signing for the jet, don't submit 100% of your IFF and F-16 time as PIC. They know there are sorties in both programs with IPs on board and regardless of who puts their signature in the forms, on a two-seat sortie, the IP is ultimately responsible for the jet. The small number of hours we're talking about just aren't worth it. Be conservative.

Two seat time with an IP is dual. Agreed that it’s not PIC.
But UA didn’t accept solo student time as PIC?
Regardless, fill the time out per the company's standards. It becomes convoluted with multi engine crews with an aircraft commander, IP, SEFE, and mission commander thrown into the mix.

It is PIC if it was civilian time.

Gets grey if it was mil time AND the military agency doesn't consider it PIC. The FAA generally just accepts the military's definition for the character of flight experience, they don't try to get into the weeds and do their own interpretation.

But.....it isn't civilian time. So, why confuse this particular discussion with that irrelevant statement.

Again - not helping. As I already said, this particular discussion has nothing to do with with what the FAA or the military consider PIC. It's about the fact that each airline may follow their own set of rules when it comes to what they will accept as PIC time.
Someone can go to an interview and try to argue that the FAA said this or the mil regs say that but airline X doesn't care. If they want the time you signed for the jet, then that's what they want .... period.. dot. Deviations from that are going to make one's interview more difficult than it needs to be.

To the OP - don't do your prep in a vacuum. There are plenty of resources out there to help with these kinds of questions. When you get to the point where you're ready to start submitting apps, take the time to sign up with a company like Emerald Coast. Have them advise you on your times and other aspects of how best to fill out your applications, prep for your interview, etc.

That info was for context, as to why you might hear this or that from different sources.

But you're correct, for hiring the airline's policy is of course controlling.

For the ATP, the FAA rules are controlling. Be careful with that if getting your ATP at a regional, regionals are not experts at military flight experience issues so they might accept flight time that they shouldn't (or vice versa). If you're doing anything complicated, research the FAA rules yourself. Have heard of guys having to retake the ATP ride because of discrepancies related to allowable mil time (and also 135 time).

Gents, thanks for all the words and advice. This is a totally new process for me so all input is much appreciated.

I’m definitely going to get professional help with putting together my application/hours. The last thing I want to do is be misleading about my hours

Piggybacking off of this:

I'm a Guard heavy dude coming off of seasoning orders as well. Living in FL, Silver seems like a great gig due to the fact of no commuting... but does turboprop time look bad in the eyes of a Legacy carrier vs having to commute to fly an RJ?

Turboprops are fine. Upgrading and grabbing 121 TPIC is probably the next biggest resume bump out there after you get 121 on your resume. The next bump would be mil IP.

Here's another consideration - fly Silver for a 1000 hrs. If a rapid upgrade isn't available take your 1000 hrs 121 and get a DEC job at a different commuter. It might be worth doing even if you upgrade at Silver if you're willing to take the pain of commuting hoping that another 121 Captain job, and type rating, might generate the final point that gets your resume reviewed.

That’s a very good point that I didn’t think about. Thank you!


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Do a lot of research on Silver before going there. I don't know how they are now but as of a few years ago they were on NetJet's no-fly list due to safety concerns. Pretty bad when a 2500 pilot operation like NetJets won't put their pilots on a certain airline when trying to position them to their jet.

Turboprops are most likely fine for a mil heavy guy who needs some TT padding, 121, or TPIC. It's not going to be so great for a pure civilian trying to get to the majors, too many RJ guys out there who can fly a jet for sure.

I think you would be fine with Silver, plus the flying they do sounds like a lot of fun!

The old Gulfstream international, anyone who's been around a few years knows all to well. Google it. I'd be real careful with this one, just because it's more convenient might not make it a good choice.

Yeah, there is that. There are some old school civilians who harbor a strong "dis-taste" for GIA pay-to-play pilots. Also GIA alumni have featured in some notorious accidents. I can't imagine they still do pay-to-play in this market, and none of that should apply to an ex-mil pilot, but I'd still probably do the research before you go.

Another piggy back:

For someone who just got hired at a regional with 1500TT, but expecting to get an ANG heavy slot soon, does anyone think the Majors will be quicker to hire with the combination of 121/Mil rather than staying civilian route?

It does not affect the decision just curious about how it may be seen and hoping it can shave off a few years.

Mil/civ is better. But how much civilian time will be traded until your available for the majors? That's the trade. If you were a regional Captain with 5,000 hrs it might delay your getting hired. With 1,500 hrs the military training period probably won't delay your transition to the majors.

If you get breaks in training, and come off orders, I'd go back to your regional and fly for the couple of weeks between military schools.

Yes........

My advice - Keep a good electronic logbook, not just the mil records. That will make updating your apps easier and you'll have some automation in the logbook app to help coming up with summaries like TPIC, turbine time, multi time, inst/night time (some ask for that), etc etc. Re-doing your conversions every time you update your resume is a total pain in the butt. I tried it and gave up. You're still new enough that transcribing your current flight records and then keeping up the logbook should be simple and straightforward, and it'll save you time down the road and give you peace of mind that you're not making errors when updating apps and trying to present consistent numbers during interviews.

"losing" a dozen or so flights or hours here and there won't ruin anything but have some explanations in your hip pocket in case there is any question why some numbers don't add up. For example, SWA wants PIC plus SIC to equal total time, so you're gonna have to put student solo in there somewhere or you'll have a couple dozen hours to explain away. Other companies might want that separated out, so you can't always use the same numbers on all resumes and applications. Just figure out what each company wants, jot that down on your summary sheet what assumptions you used to create each application's numbers, and then use the electronic logbook to update it from then on.

Vice, you're in the exact same shoes I was in circa 2011. My advice, as with others on here, is to go to a regional that allows you to drive to work. If you have multiple options, then go read on the regional forum and find one that has a better work environment...hopefully you won't be there long anyway. This makes life infinitely mo betta as it allows you to easily work both gigs to their fullest. I was able to find a gig that was an hour drive to my airline and I lived about 15 minutes from the Guard base and it truly made life much easier. I've been extremely lucky and my Legacy job gives me the same "commute." I can't begin to explain the QOL this provides while trying to balance both gigs.

I was never an IP (gave up my IPUG slot to go to a legacy) and I'm convinced I only got a call is because I had 121 time on top of my Viper time. You'll be doing your career a huge favor by heading to a regional. Of course, I will always recommend pushing for IPUG for reasons other than your civilian career, but it obviously won't hurt in that regard.

Feel free to PM if you have any questions. Best of luck!

To the OP (and anyone else with SA!). Just curious what you ended up doing and how it's worked out?

I'm in a similar situation...A-10 guard guy with the following:

TT: ~1600
PIC: ~1400
A-10: ~1300 (All ME turbine)
A-10 IP
Got my ATP

I've had apps in at the Major's for about 6 mo. Currently a full-time tech, but considering heading off to the regionals to get the 121 time and the experience. However, with a family and 2-kids we're struggling with the big pay cut (they just upped the GS pilot pay and got the tech bonus). We're frugal, so we'd do it in a heartbeat if I was convinced it would get me to the majors faster.

Thoughts?

If you’ve got x00 hours in the last 12 months that they’re looking for currency, start networking harder. Get to those job fairs and have your buds submit internal recs. Have your app/resume reviewed by the consultants first.

If you’ve got to go to a starter 121 gig go to a LCC over a regional if you can since pay is better. Consider ACMI for the pay and positive space to work. If you’re left going to a regional go to on you can drive to.

You should get there eventually, but times are a hair low for the top tier, even for a fighter guy.

Regional might well put you over the top faster, more TT and more boxes to check. May depend on how much you're flying in the guard.

Advantage to regionals is fast upgrade, if you don't get out in a couple years the consolation prize is 121 PIC, which will put you over the top. That will take a bit longer at LCC and most ACMI. Majors don't seem to value LCC/ACMI time over regional time. I know plenty of reservists who did a quick lap at the regionals, typically takes about 18 months.

As was said, full court press on applications, networking, and job fairs. It's a full-time job in and of itself.

Depends on a lot of things like the cost of living in your state. I live in TX which is inexpensive compared to many parts of the country and I'm thankful for that. I was AGR O-5 with a pilot bonus. I took a 40% paycut to retire from the USAFR (no AD retirement) and go back to my ACMI. Then another 10-15% paycut to start over at a Legacy. My wife stays home with the 2 kids. We make it all work on first year Legacy pay (around $80-90K) and we're almost to year 2 pay which will be a 50% raise. I'll be back to my AGR pay by year 3 and pulling way ahead after that. Do some planning, pad your emergency fund then bite the bullet. The breakeven point is only about 3 years out. If you want more details, feel free to PM me.

Dalehog - go do 121. A one year delay is the best year of your career, $300-450K, depending upon your age. That’s what the delay costs.

Bust both nuts cranking out the hours. Guy I helped had slightly more A-10 time (1600-1800????) and 800 hrs 121 when he got hired.

Thanks for the feedback gents. A lot of good considerations in here. It’s tough to know what’s competitive in this hiring climate and I think I’ve been a little ignorant thinking my fighter time at the mins is enough. Have definitely been updating my apps at least once a week and went through a professional review service. No skeletons, training failure or giant red flags (that I see anyway) on my resume. I’ll keep flying my balls off, get my network on and keep pressing forward. Thanks!

Just out of curiosity, do you know his quals? IP? SEFE? Any other boxes checked like safety school, flight commander, etc.?

Hey Rickair, he’s not a fighter guy, he’s an attack guy. There’s a big difference. Attack guys are more lethal, to more people, more of the time.

Interestingly, Attack guys (and gals) are much more socially developed than Fighter guys, and Fighter gals. That is because Fighter Folk are so woefully underdeveloped. And that comes from speaking only to each other. :D ;)

Airland, Airdrop, Airsick.
Flying at the Speed of Smell—Tactical Airlift