Never give an order you lack…
#41
I know we will never agree on the legality of the order ( we will let the courts decide I guess) and I’m not going to change your mind, but this mandate is breaking the military, if they continue down the path we are on the military will never be the same. Morale is in the toilet, retention and recruiting numbers are the worse we have seen in 20 years.
And if this truly turns into a partisan political issue - and it well might - that REALLY puts the military in a bind.
But the order was given and - stupid or not - there is no walking it back without paying a price. Or paying the price for NOT walking it back.
Either way, the US military loses. And looks foolish.
Judge Declines to Punish Army Officer in First-Ever COVID Court-Martial
BY JAKE THOMAS ON 5/5/22 AT 11:31 PM EDTU.S. Army officer has been convicted in a first-ever court-martial for violating COVID-19 protocols, however, the judge overseeing the case declined to impose punishment.
First Lt. Mark Bashaw was convicted last week for refusing orders imposed on unvaccinated troops at Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland, reports the Army Times. The conviction is the latest as the military continues to grapple with fallout over its COVID mitigation measures.
Bashaw, who formerly served as the Army Public Health Center's headquarters company commander at Aberdeen, faced three charges for allegedly refusing to work remotely or submit to testing requirements and refusing to wear a mask while indoors. Additionally, Bashaw was alleged to have stayed at work despite not having a negative COVID test.
The Army facility at the time required all onsite workers to provide proof of being vaccinated against COVID or submit to regular testing. Bashaw's charges were the first case the Army referred for court-martial, according to an Aberdeen spokesperson."After a careful consideration of the evidence, a military judge exercised lawful authority not to adjudge punishment," Amburr Reese, a service spokesperson, told Military.com.
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Posts: 147
#43
a federal judge ruled the two are not interchangeable EUA and FDA approved.
https://www.oom2.com/t77852-huge-fed...20in%20August.
they can’t give a bad dd214 without a court marshal and possible trial, weird thing is they won’t let any of these soldiers(Army National Guard) pursue that path. Also the standard punishments for disobeying orders are LOR’s not removal from the military. This is worst order as far as foggy legalities that I have seen since joining the military.
on the order part, I can’t count how many times I haven’t followed orders, most were minor and really dumb, some were bigger, but I never once thought I would be removed from the military for my “disciplined disobedience”.
I have the shot, but it is tough watching good soldiers under me get punished over a stupid shot that at best case works for a few months, and at worst case is harmful.
https://www.oom2.com/t77852-huge-fed...20in%20August.
they can’t give a bad dd214 without a court marshal and possible trial, weird thing is they won’t let any of these soldiers(Army National Guard) pursue that path. Also the standard punishments for disobeying orders are LOR’s not removal from the military. This is worst order as far as foggy legalities that I have seen since joining the military.
on the order part, I can’t count how many times I haven’t followed orders, most were minor and really dumb, some were bigger, but I never once thought I would be removed from the military for my “disciplined disobedience”.
I have the shot, but it is tough watching good soldiers under me get punished over a stupid shot that at best case works for a few months, and at worst case is harmful.
It is unusual how they are dealing with it, but I can tell you why and it has nothing to do with labels on bottles...
DoD needs to retain their high ground on mandatory vaccination (and other orders which potentially hazard service members).
If they went Article 15/CM and bad paper for thousands of members there would be too much political blowback and congress might just intervene with unpredictable consequences for future good order and discipline. Policy ADSEP keeps them in control.
#44
One case involved a Squadron Section Commander dating one of his directly supervised enlisted troops while his wife was finishing up her degree program at his last base - then working a behind the scenes deal with AFMPC to ship the enlisted troop off to a Korea remote before his wife finished her program and showed up. Almost half of the board wanted to go with only a lesser included charge that would have allowed the officer to avoid discharge. Go figure.
This ain’t your Daddy’s military.
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Posts: 147
That is a legal technicality. Absent physical differences in the contents of the bottle, DoD can do it's own thing.
It is unusual how they are dealing with it, but I can tell you why and it has nothing to do with labels on bottles...
DoD needs to retain their high ground on mandatory vaccination (and other orders which potentially hazard service members).
If they went Article 15/CM and bad paper for thousands of members there would be too much political blowback and congress might just intervene with unpredictable consequences for future good order and discipline. Policy ADSEP keeps them in control.
It is unusual how they are dealing with it, but I can tell you why and it has nothing to do with labels on bottles...
DoD needs to retain their high ground on mandatory vaccination (and other orders which potentially hazard service members).
If they went Article 15/CM and bad paper for thousands of members there would be too much political blowback and congress might just intervene with unpredictable consequences for future good order and discipline. Policy ADSEP keeps them in control.
Regardless though, that's in the weeds as this point. Enough digital ink spilled on that topic over the past couple years.
I'm more interested in the overall effect on military readiness. The discharges for refusing the Covid vax are one thing, but I wonder if we're starting to see the beginning of a big change in US military readiness.
The US had the draft between 1940 and 1973, alongside an option for people to sign up voluntarily. In 1973, we transitioned to an all-volunteer force.
For the most part, from 1973 through the 1990s, military service was a pretty decent deal. Sign up, train, get a skill, make a decision to stay in or get out. If you got out, you could use your GI Bill, VA loan, and other benefits to get a jump start on life. If you stayed in, you had a chance for a decent career and good retirement. Ultimately, not a real big chance of getting shot at, or getting deployed for a long period of time. Even through the 90s, the occasional deployments to the Middle East weren't too bad.
After 9/11, we went all-in on these endless nation-building exercises. Some people came home in boxes. Other people came home physically or mentally maimed. Lots of people with both. Add to that, while the US military has always put on a great PR campaign with the American people, the advent of social media really gives an opportunity for people to see beyond "An Army of One, Aim High, etc." The latest kerfuffle over vaccine mandate is just another black eye on the military.
For all the digs at millennials/Gen Z, etc, those 18-year olds aren't dummies. They'll do a quick google search before signing on the dotted line with their recruiter. Or maybe they'll just think back to watching our chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan, and decide that maybe community college is a better choice.
If you were an 18-year old today, and you were thinking about serving, would you sign up in today's military?
It'll be interesting to see how the military responds to the more challenging recruiting environment over the next five years.
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 599
nope,nope, nope
Everything in our society has been politicized. The military (at least down at the troop level) was somewhat shielded during my time. Not anymore. Very sad.
Heck, even nascar (all they do is drive fast and turn left) has been pulled into our society’s need to find something, anything to scrap about.
Too many pitfalls in todays world. An 18 y/o kid standing guard, forced into split second life and death decisions that may or may not be backed up depending on however the political winds are blowing for the select few in DC who’ve never laid anything on the line… and never will
not no, but hell no
#47
And the polarization continues…
19 Jul 2022
Military.com | By Rebecca KheelVeterans who received a general discharge from the military for anything other than some serious crimes would be eligible for GI Bill benefits under a bill advanced by a House committee Tuesday.
The House Veterans Affairs Committee advanced the bill along largely party lines after lawmakers sparred over the military's COVID-19 vaccine mandate. The bill, as introduced by Rep. Scott Fitzgerald, R-Wis., was originally intended to extend GI Bill benefits only to veterans who have been discharged for refusing the COVID-19 vaccine, but the committee voted to replace Fitzgerald's proposal with a much broader one offered by committee Chairman Mark Takano, D-Calif.
Military.com | By Rebecca KheelVeterans who received a general discharge from the military for anything other than some serious crimes would be eligible for GI Bill benefits under a bill advanced by a House committee Tuesday.
The House Veterans Affairs Committee advanced the bill along largely party lines after lawmakers sparred over the military's COVID-19 vaccine mandate. The bill, as introduced by Rep. Scott Fitzgerald, R-Wis., was originally intended to extend GI Bill benefits only to veterans who have been discharged for refusing the COVID-19 vaccine, but the committee voted to replace Fitzgerald's proposal with a much broader one offered by committee Chairman Mark Takano, D-Calif.
#49
Military law is pretty much the same in all western worlds. Jawhol? Shoot those civilian children. Jawhol!
A lawful order must be lawful. So, were those soldiers who took drugs under a CIA program run by Dr. Sidney Gotlieb ( grandfather of Pfizer board member and former FDA commissioner Scott Gotlieb).were those lawful orders? At the time it was believed to be so..not now, but defenders of the program claim it was “voluntary “. Do it or take a discharge.
Historical note. I took the swine flu vaccine in 1976, the day before I left on 2 weeks leave from the Air Force. Don’t remember if it was an order or suggested. At the time I didn’t care, as I was used to mandatory vaccine requirements for MAC crew members who traveled all continents. Next night I was in an Army Hospital. Thought I might die. That gave me a whole new outlook on vaccines.
I have 2 sons in uniform. One had 13 years when the order was given. Really tough choice for him.
There needs to be clear limits on peace time military authority. It is too vague.
A lawful order must be lawful. So, were those soldiers who took drugs under a CIA program run by Dr. Sidney Gotlieb ( grandfather of Pfizer board member and former FDA commissioner Scott Gotlieb).were those lawful orders? At the time it was believed to be so..not now, but defenders of the program claim it was “voluntary “. Do it or take a discharge.
Historical note. I took the swine flu vaccine in 1976, the day before I left on 2 weeks leave from the Air Force. Don’t remember if it was an order or suggested. At the time I didn’t care, as I was used to mandatory vaccine requirements for MAC crew members who traveled all continents. Next night I was in an Army Hospital. Thought I might die. That gave me a whole new outlook on vaccines.
I have 2 sons in uniform. One had 13 years when the order was given. Really tough choice for him.
There needs to be clear limits on peace time military authority. It is too vague.
#50
The mil would react by processing more folks for OTH and DD. And out of necessity imposing more stringent punishment... brig time instead of a months pay, etc.
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