SkyWest refusing to count certain PIC hours
08-05-2024 | 05:50 PM
#1
Thread Starter
On Reserve
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 33
Likes: 1
SkyWest refusing to count certain PIC hours
Passing the word along from the gold wing-only forum.
As many here probably know, one way low-time Navy/Marine/Coast Guard pilots will rack and stack their hours to meet the requirements of FAR 61.160 (Restricted ATP) is by counting First Pilot Time (Pilot Flying) in the T-34 or T-6 as sole manipulator PIC after they complete their safe-for-solo checkride and receive the "Qualified PIC in T-34C/T-6B" logbook entry. Per correspondence with the recruiters and hiring staff at SkyWest, this has been good enough since it meets the intent of FAR 61.51 (rated in category and class).
Well, at least a couple prior rotary-wing Naval Aviators in the last few months have applied to, interviewed with, and received CJOs from SkyWest, only for the APD during LOE to shift the goalposts and say those sole manipulator PIC hours don't count. Said APDs are claiming the FAA has changed the rules, which is outright BS. It is worth emphasizing there are probably hundreds of prior Naval Aviators flying the line at SkyWest whose hours were counted in such a fashion. At least one was told during LOE he had a week to go rent GA airplanes and fly the rest of those 250 airplane PIC hours or essentially be washed out on a technicality. Another was told their time built on the side in a C182RG was illegal since their logbook lacked complex or high performance endorsements (even though the flying club to which they belonged counted their T-34C PIC checkout as such).
It is glaringly obvious to anyone following the industry and the current hiring environment this is a calculated game plan to wash out as many prior military pilots as possible since so many did a hit-and-run with regionals (using them for an ATP and then bouncing to a major as soon as they hit 1,500TT) during the mad-house hiring environment of 2021-2022. Or at the very least, force these pilots to reapply and get them to sign the training contract.
Something to be aware of. If you're a prior military pilot applying to SkyWest, be prepared to list only actual solo and aircraft commander hours towards any listed PIC requirements. If you're a helicopter pilot and can't swing a tour as a T-6 or T-44 Instructor Pilot for your shore duty, highly recommend joining the nearest flying club and getting your 250 PIC/100 XC PIC/25 night PIC in a Cessna 172 or something similar.
As many here probably know, one way low-time Navy/Marine/Coast Guard pilots will rack and stack their hours to meet the requirements of FAR 61.160 (Restricted ATP) is by counting First Pilot Time (Pilot Flying) in the T-34 or T-6 as sole manipulator PIC after they complete their safe-for-solo checkride and receive the "Qualified PIC in T-34C/T-6B" logbook entry. Per correspondence with the recruiters and hiring staff at SkyWest, this has been good enough since it meets the intent of FAR 61.51 (rated in category and class).
Well, at least a couple prior rotary-wing Naval Aviators in the last few months have applied to, interviewed with, and received CJOs from SkyWest, only for the APD during LOE to shift the goalposts and say those sole manipulator PIC hours don't count. Said APDs are claiming the FAA has changed the rules, which is outright BS. It is worth emphasizing there are probably hundreds of prior Naval Aviators flying the line at SkyWest whose hours were counted in such a fashion. At least one was told during LOE he had a week to go rent GA airplanes and fly the rest of those 250 airplane PIC hours or essentially be washed out on a technicality. Another was told their time built on the side in a C182RG was illegal since their logbook lacked complex or high performance endorsements (even though the flying club to which they belonged counted their T-34C PIC checkout as such).
It is glaringly obvious to anyone following the industry and the current hiring environment this is a calculated game plan to wash out as many prior military pilots as possible since so many did a hit-and-run with regionals (using them for an ATP and then bouncing to a major as soon as they hit 1,500TT) during the mad-house hiring environment of 2021-2022. Or at the very least, force these pilots to reapply and get them to sign the training contract.
Something to be aware of. If you're a prior military pilot applying to SkyWest, be prepared to list only actual solo and aircraft commander hours towards any listed PIC requirements. If you're a helicopter pilot and can't swing a tour as a T-6 or T-44 Instructor Pilot for your shore duty, highly recommend joining the nearest flying club and getting your 250 PIC/100 XC PIC/25 night PIC in a Cessna 172 or something similar.
08-05-2024 | 08:52 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,149
Likes: 46
From: Volleyball Player
Passing the word along from the gold wing-only forum.
As many here probably know, one way low-time Navy/Marine/Coast Guard pilots will rack and stack their hours to meet the requirements of FAR 61.160 (Restricted ATP) is by counting First Pilot Time (Pilot Flying) in the T-34 or T-6 as sole manipulator PIC after they complete their safe-for-solo checkride and receive the "Qualified PIC in T-34C/T-6B" logbook entry. Per correspondence with the recruiters and hiring staff at SkyWest, this has been good enough since it meets the intent of FAR 61.51 (rated in category and class).
Well, at least a couple prior rotary-wing Naval Aviators in the last few months have applied to, interviewed with, and received CJOs from SkyWest, only for the APD during LOE to shift the goalposts and say those sole manipulator PIC hours don't count. Said APDs are claiming the FAA has changed the rules, which is outright BS. It is worth emphasizing there are probably hundreds of prior Naval Aviators flying the line at SkyWest whose hours were counted in such a fashion. At least one was told during LOE he had a week to go rent GA airplanes and fly the rest of those 250 airplane PIC hours or essentially be washed out on a technicality. Another was told their time built on the side in a C182RG was illegal since their logbook lacked complex or high performance endorsements (even though the flying club to which they belonged counted their T-34C PIC checkout as such).
It is glaringly obvious to anyone following the industry and the current hiring environment this is a calculated game plan to wash out as many prior military pilots as possible since so many did a hit-and-run with regionals (using them for an ATP and then bouncing to a major as soon as they hit 1,500TT) during the mad-house hiring environment of 2021-2022. Or at the very least, force these pilots to reapply and get them to sign the training contract.
Something to be aware of. If you're a prior military pilot applying to SkyWest, be prepared to list only actual solo and aircraft commander hours towards any listed PIC requirements. If you're a helicopter pilot and can't swing a tour as a T-6 or T-44 Instructor Pilot for your shore duty, highly recommend joining the nearest flying club and getting your 250 PIC/100 XC PIC/25 night PIC in a Cessna 172 or something similar.
As many here probably know, one way low-time Navy/Marine/Coast Guard pilots will rack and stack their hours to meet the requirements of FAR 61.160 (Restricted ATP) is by counting First Pilot Time (Pilot Flying) in the T-34 or T-6 as sole manipulator PIC after they complete their safe-for-solo checkride and receive the "Qualified PIC in T-34C/T-6B" logbook entry. Per correspondence with the recruiters and hiring staff at SkyWest, this has been good enough since it meets the intent of FAR 61.51 (rated in category and class).
Well, at least a couple prior rotary-wing Naval Aviators in the last few months have applied to, interviewed with, and received CJOs from SkyWest, only for the APD during LOE to shift the goalposts and say those sole manipulator PIC hours don't count. Said APDs are claiming the FAA has changed the rules, which is outright BS. It is worth emphasizing there are probably hundreds of prior Naval Aviators flying the line at SkyWest whose hours were counted in such a fashion. At least one was told during LOE he had a week to go rent GA airplanes and fly the rest of those 250 airplane PIC hours or essentially be washed out on a technicality. Another was told their time built on the side in a C182RG was illegal since their logbook lacked complex or high performance endorsements (even though the flying club to which they belonged counted their T-34C PIC checkout as such).
It is glaringly obvious to anyone following the industry and the current hiring environment this is a calculated game plan to wash out as many prior military pilots as possible since so many did a hit-and-run with regionals (using them for an ATP and then bouncing to a major as soon as they hit 1,500TT) during the mad-house hiring environment of 2021-2022. Or at the very least, force these pilots to reapply and get them to sign the training contract.
Something to be aware of. If you're a prior military pilot applying to SkyWest, be prepared to list only actual solo and aircraft commander hours towards any listed PIC requirements. If you're a helicopter pilot and can't swing a tour as a T-6 or T-44 Instructor Pilot for your shore duty, highly recommend joining the nearest flying club and getting your 250 PIC/100 XC PIC/25 night PIC in a Cessna 172 or something similar.
I see an interesting caveat in the regulations that I'm not sure has been addressed. According to 61.51, you have to be a civil pilot of some type to log time, as in commercial, private, student or ATP, etc. If one did not hold a civil pilot certificate when the time was logged, I'm not sure how those hours would be eligible for credit under the regulation. The FAA can do military-competency certification of military pilots up to commercial and flight instructor, where they don't have to meet any specific time requirements except the 10 hours of "pilot time", but for the ATP, to count PIC time, it would have to be logged under 61.51, no? If there was any further intent to the rule, it would be found in the NPRM/FR rulemaking information for 61.51 and without anything specific there, the rule would be taken at face value. In general, if this rule meant to include military time, it would say so.
Interested to see where this goes.
08-06-2024 | 08:51 AM
#3
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 44,906
Likes: 691
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
It is glaringly obvious to anyone following the industry and the current hiring environment this is a calculated game plan to wash out as many prior military pilots as possible since so many did a hit-and-run with regionals (using them for an ATP and then bouncing to a major as soon as they hit 1,500TT) during the mad-house hiring environment of 2021-2022. Or at the very least, force these pilots to reapply and get them to sign the training contract.
But OO isn't hiring and training mil pilots, only to intentionally wash them out on checkride day on a grey area technicality, that's just plain dumb. If they didn't want mil people they simply wouldn't hire them.
08-06-2024 | 03:39 PM
#4
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,768
Likes: 28
This is again may be a good situation for someone to contact the POI of the certificate. The APD is probably managed by an APOI, but the POI is managing the POI. There have been some regional airlines recently not counting legitmate 135 SIC time, thinking that the only way is with a PDP program, when there are specific regulatory rules that require an SIC and allow the time to be logged, including IFR with passengers and 135.267(b)(2), or when the PIC's type rating says "SIC required", to name a few.
I see an interesting caveat in the regulations that I'm not sure has been addressed. According to 61.51, you have to be a civil pilot of some type to log time, as in commercial, private, student or ATP, etc. If one did not hold a civil pilot certificate when the time was logged, I'm not sure how those hours would be eligible for credit under the regulation. The FAA can do military-competency certification of military pilots up to commercial and flight instructor, where they don't have to meet any specific time requirements except the 10 hours of "pilot time", but for the ATP, to count PIC time, it would have to be logged under 61.51, no? If there was any further intent to the rule, it would be found in the NPRM/FR rulemaking information for 61.51 and without anything specific there, the rule would be taken at face value. In general, if this rule meant to include military time, it would say so.
Interested to see where this goes.
I see an interesting caveat in the regulations that I'm not sure has been addressed. According to 61.51, you have to be a civil pilot of some type to log time, as in commercial, private, student or ATP, etc. If one did not hold a civil pilot certificate when the time was logged, I'm not sure how those hours would be eligible for credit under the regulation. The FAA can do military-competency certification of military pilots up to commercial and flight instructor, where they don't have to meet any specific time requirements except the 10 hours of "pilot time", but for the ATP, to count PIC time, it would have to be logged under 61.51, no? If there was any further intent to the rule, it would be found in the NPRM/FR rulemaking information for 61.51 and without anything specific there, the rule would be taken at face value. In general, if this rule meant to include military time, it would say so.
Interested to see where this goes.
08-07-2024 | 07:29 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,472
Likes: 639
From: NYC 7ERA
08-07-2024 | 09:44 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,149
Likes: 46
From: Volleyball Player
Do you think they are not clear? It seems to clearly state you have to have a civil pilot certificate of some time to log PIC, PIC that would then count for other certificates/ratings/aeronautical experience that would be required by the FAA.
08-08-2024 | 10:33 AM
#10
Disinterested Third Party
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,758
Likes: 74
14 CFR 61.51(e):
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) Except when logging flight time under § 61.159(c), when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—
(1) Preflight preparation;
(2) Preflight procedures;
(3) Takeoff and departure;
(4) In-flight maneuvers;
(5) Instrument procedures;
(6) Landings and approaches to landings;
(7) Normal and abnormal procedures;
(8) Emergency procedures; and
(9) Postflight procedures;
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—
(1) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
(2) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.
(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
(5) A commercial pilot or airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation in accordance with § 135.99(c) of this chapter if the flight is conducted in accordance with an approved second-in-command professional development program that meets the requirements of § 135.99(c) of this chapter.
Were these pilots sport, recreational, private, commerecial or airline transport pilot rated, with an FAA certificate, or holders of a FAA student pilot certificate with appropriatee endorsements? 61.51(e) addresses and establishes the regulation governing logging of pilot in command time by US certificate holders. It does not impose limitations on what can be logged by anyone else, whether a foreign pilot military pilot, or simply somone logging time on their own, for their own purposes. When someone seeks to apply their pilot time toward FAA airman certification, however, the regulation governs what time may be logged and used for those purposes.
The regulation refers to FAA airman certification. Rated means rated by category and class (and type, if appropriate) for the aircraft concerned. If complex or conventional gear, an appropriate endorsement is required.
These are not new regulations.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-1.../section-61.51
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) Except when logging flight time under § 61.159(c), when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—
(1) Preflight preparation;
(2) Preflight procedures;
(3) Takeoff and departure;
(4) In-flight maneuvers;
(5) Instrument procedures;
(6) Landings and approaches to landings;
(7) Normal and abnormal procedures;
(8) Emergency procedures; and
(9) Postflight procedures;
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—
(1) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
(2) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.
(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
(5) A commercial pilot or airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation in accordance with § 135.99(c) of this chapter if the flight is conducted in accordance with an approved second-in-command professional development program that meets the requirements of § 135.99(c) of this chapter.
The regulation refers to FAA airman certification. Rated means rated by category and class (and type, if appropriate) for the aircraft concerned. If complex or conventional gear, an appropriate endorsement is required.
These are not new regulations.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-1.../section-61.51
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
