Palace Chase repercussions...
08-26-2007 | 04:57 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 694
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From: Walmart Greeter
I know you're not trying to pick a fight. I have a very close friend (since 2nd grade) who is now flying F-18s at Oceana. There are some obvious differences between the AF and Navy and this is one of them.
These are my opinions and observations, but I think many will agree. It's not really a factor of not being able to trust your boss. It's the promotion system that is so f'd up. Flying records don't matter. Job performance doesn't matter. Promotion potential is what matters.
So, there's a LOT of people who play the system, and there's a LOT of people who can't fly worth a crap, but they volunteer for every additonal duty known to mankind. They work the Wing Commander's change of command ceremony. They organize some 4-star's visit to the base. And they let their boss know how much they want to be a squadron commander. So when it's time for the boss to rack & stack everyone, he can't go to the promotion board and demand that they promote Capt X because he had the shortest upgrade time to IP, or because he's the most respected pilot/leader, or he has the most combat experience. The AF promotion board stresses "officership" over duty performance, so that we theoretically don't get into fights in trying to say that a guy flying a C-17 medevac mission is more important than an F-16 CAS mission versus a Civil Engineer rebuilding some runway in Iraq. Instead, it's the additional duties (since they're the common ground between all jobs) that get you promoted, since the promotion system essentially assumes that everyone does a great job at their primary duty (otherwise, their Wing Commander wouldn't recommend them for promotion).
So back to the original topic. If you're a guy with 2 years left on active duty, and you tell your boss that you want to get out, he's most likely NOT going to try and outwardly screw you. HOWEVER, he will now focus his efforts into "grooming" those left remaining so that he can help them get promoted. And you get screwed... he can only give so many "Definately Promote" ratings, and if he thinks you're leaving in a year or so, why waste one on you? Give it to the guy who wants to stay in.
Yes, it is dysfunctional. Why do you think so many guys are getting out? I'd love to stay another 10 years, but I can't imagine more of this "do more with less" attitude in which some Airman's primary duty becomes yet another of my additional duties. I can't imagine UPS making money if it required its pilots to do clerical work.
Riddler
These are my opinions and observations, but I think many will agree. It's not really a factor of not being able to trust your boss. It's the promotion system that is so f'd up. Flying records don't matter. Job performance doesn't matter. Promotion potential is what matters.
So, there's a LOT of people who play the system, and there's a LOT of people who can't fly worth a crap, but they volunteer for every additonal duty known to mankind. They work the Wing Commander's change of command ceremony. They organize some 4-star's visit to the base. And they let their boss know how much they want to be a squadron commander. So when it's time for the boss to rack & stack everyone, he can't go to the promotion board and demand that they promote Capt X because he had the shortest upgrade time to IP, or because he's the most respected pilot/leader, or he has the most combat experience. The AF promotion board stresses "officership" over duty performance, so that we theoretically don't get into fights in trying to say that a guy flying a C-17 medevac mission is more important than an F-16 CAS mission versus a Civil Engineer rebuilding some runway in Iraq. Instead, it's the additional duties (since they're the common ground between all jobs) that get you promoted, since the promotion system essentially assumes that everyone does a great job at their primary duty (otherwise, their Wing Commander wouldn't recommend them for promotion).
So back to the original topic. If you're a guy with 2 years left on active duty, and you tell your boss that you want to get out, he's most likely NOT going to try and outwardly screw you. HOWEVER, he will now focus his efforts into "grooming" those left remaining so that he can help them get promoted. And you get screwed... he can only give so many "Definately Promote" ratings, and if he thinks you're leaving in a year or so, why waste one on you? Give it to the guy who wants to stay in.
Yes, it is dysfunctional. Why do you think so many guys are getting out? I'd love to stay another 10 years, but I can't imagine more of this "do more with less" attitude in which some Airman's primary duty becomes yet another of my additional duties. I can't imagine UPS making money if it required its pilots to do clerical work.
Riddler
Riddler,
I wouldn't say there is a huge philosophical difference with respect to promotion/assignment selection between the AF and the Navy. I think, regardless of the service branch, the cream rises to the top and in the end hard work and good airmanship is rewarded accordingly.
Both services look at the Officer before the pilot and that is how it should be IMHO. If Flag/General officers were all aviators then I would say the flying part of it should weigh in to a greater extent, however that is not the case. Could it be tweaked? Sure.
The Navy, I think has an easier time of this when writing FITREPS since our ground jobs are generally different than our AF counterparts. I don't say that to slight any AF brethren out there as we all work our a$$es off. Unlike the AF we have OPS/Maint/Admin/Safety all under one command. That lends itself to more "Officer" duties or leadership opportunities in addition to flying/tactics, nearly to a fault. I would never in my wildest dreams volunteer to organize a Change of Command, or a Flag visit nor would it ever appear on my Fitrep if I was tasked with doing it. It's just expected. That said, I think the Navy does itself a disservice by overtasking JO's, especially in the single seat world. With today's advanced tactics, I don't think we have nearly enough time to devote to those tactics because of the ground jobs/collateral duties. When all I needed to know, was 1 timeline, and how to drop an LGB or JDAM, life was good. It's not that way anymore and it negatively impacts QOL when not deployed.
The similarity for us is that if you show your cards too early, you will be shunned in some cases, in other/most cases, CO's will still appreciate the hard work and take care of you regardless of your intentions. In my case I waited til the very last minute to show my cards, but was completely honest with my chain of command as to my reasons. It is complete dependant on the person/command in all cases. I have not seen any negativity towards me becuase of my decision. My CO completely respects my decision to leave.
I feel for the AF guys caught in this mess right now, it can't be easy. It's the same in the Navy. Dudes are literally staying in or getting out these days based on whether they think they will do an IA in IRAQ or Afghanistan. For me, 6-12 months in Iraq would have been totally worth the increased QOL post Navy and my decision to exit would have been the same.
Bdger
08-26-2007 | 06:22 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 593
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From: Left Seat, Toyota Tacoma
Riddler,
I wouldn't say there is a huge philosophical difference with respect to promotion/assignment selection between the AF and the Navy. I think, regardless of the service branch, the cream rises to the top and in the end hard work and good airmanship is rewarded accordingly.
Both services look at the Officer before the pilot and that is how it should be IMHO. If Flag/General officers were all aviators then I would say the flying part of it should weigh in to a greater extent, however that is not the case. Could it be tweaked? Sure.
The Navy, I think has an easier time of this when writing FITREPS since our ground jobs are generally different than our AF counterparts. I don't say that to slight any AF brethren out there as we all work our a$$es off. Unlike the AF we have OPS/Maint/Admin/Safety all under one command. That lends itself to more "Officer" duties or leadership opportunities in addition to flying/tactics, nearly to a fault. I would never in my wildest dreams volunteer to organize a Change of Command, or a Flag visit nor would it ever appear on my Fitrep if I was tasked with doing it. It's just expected. That said, I think the Navy does itself a disservice by overtasking JO's, especially in the single seat world. With today's advanced tactics, I don't think we have nearly enough time to devote to those tactics because of the ground jobs/collateral duties. When all I needed to know, was 1 timeline, and how to drop an LGB or JDAM, life was good. It's not that way anymore and it negatively impacts QOL when not deployed.
The similarity for us is that if you show your cards too early, you will be shunned in some cases, in other/most cases, CO's will still appreciate the hard work and take care of you regardless of your intentions. In my case I waited til the very last minute to show my cards, but was completely honest with my chain of command as to my reasons. It is complete dependant on the person/command in all cases. I have not seen any negativity towards me becuase of my decision. My CO completely respects my decision to leave.
I feel for the AF guys caught in this mess right now, it can't be easy. It's the same in the Navy. Dudes are literally staying in or getting out these days based on whether they think they will do an IA in IRAQ or Afghanistan. For me, 6-12 months in Iraq would have been totally worth the increased QOL post Navy and my decision to exit would have been the same.
Bdger
I wouldn't say there is a huge philosophical difference with respect to promotion/assignment selection between the AF and the Navy. I think, regardless of the service branch, the cream rises to the top and in the end hard work and good airmanship is rewarded accordingly.
Both services look at the Officer before the pilot and that is how it should be IMHO. If Flag/General officers were all aviators then I would say the flying part of it should weigh in to a greater extent, however that is not the case. Could it be tweaked? Sure.
The Navy, I think has an easier time of this when writing FITREPS since our ground jobs are generally different than our AF counterparts. I don't say that to slight any AF brethren out there as we all work our a$$es off. Unlike the AF we have OPS/Maint/Admin/Safety all under one command. That lends itself to more "Officer" duties or leadership opportunities in addition to flying/tactics, nearly to a fault. I would never in my wildest dreams volunteer to organize a Change of Command, or a Flag visit nor would it ever appear on my Fitrep if I was tasked with doing it. It's just expected. That said, I think the Navy does itself a disservice by overtasking JO's, especially in the single seat world. With today's advanced tactics, I don't think we have nearly enough time to devote to those tactics because of the ground jobs/collateral duties. When all I needed to know, was 1 timeline, and how to drop an LGB or JDAM, life was good. It's not that way anymore and it negatively impacts QOL when not deployed.
The similarity for us is that if you show your cards too early, you will be shunned in some cases, in other/most cases, CO's will still appreciate the hard work and take care of you regardless of your intentions. In my case I waited til the very last minute to show my cards, but was completely honest with my chain of command as to my reasons. It is complete dependant on the person/command in all cases. I have not seen any negativity towards me becuase of my decision. My CO completely respects my decision to leave.
I feel for the AF guys caught in this mess right now, it can't be easy. It's the same in the Navy. Dudes are literally staying in or getting out these days based on whether they think they will do an IA in IRAQ or Afghanistan. For me, 6-12 months in Iraq would have been totally worth the increased QOL post Navy and my decision to exit would have been the same.
Bdger
You brought up the key difference: in the Navy, Ops, Maintenance, etc. are under the same command. I'm sure it creates a lot of work, but at least you're all on the same sheet of music. In the AF, the Wing Commander is theoretically in charge of 4 equal groups: Ops, Maintenance, Mission Support, and Medical. All of those groups have to answer to HHQ regulations and metrics, and in my opinion, the Wing Commander has little authority to actually direct any policy change. All of those groups are forced with shrinking manpower and budgets, and they do their best to cope with the changes. Unfortunately, they make a LOT of unilateral decisions. For example, Maintenance refuses to load comm, navigation, or terrain databases in our jets, because they never got any increase in money, people, or training to do it. As a result, crews show up at the jet and things are out of date. Their only option is to take the 40 minutes to load it all themselves, but unfortunately, no one affords them an extra 40 minutes of preflight time to do it. Same thing with every other base support activity. For a while at another base I flew out of, the maintenance group dictated that crews are responsible for fueling their jets. It eventually got turned around, but still... WTF? Talk to anyone in the AF about mission support and they'll laugh.
No one's performance report actually talks about how that person supports the AF or base's missioin. Instead, if you suck at flying and you decide to volunteer for 180 days in Iraq, you're now a warrior who deserves promotion. If you're a squadron commander who ignores his people in time of need but deploys for 120 days, you've just shown your boss that you're ready to make O-6.
OK, sorry for all the complaining, but I've had 10+ years of this crap and I can't stand the idea of another 10.
Riddler
08-26-2007 | 09:05 PM
#14
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 96
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From: Sitting
Spot On!
Spartan07, it is my own humble opinion that the Air Force started down the precipitous slope when the dual track career options disappeared. We only have one career path these days...the command track. Gone are the days were a guy could fly for 20 years and retire happy as a Major. Now it's nothing more than an ass-kissing, back-stabbing political game. Oh, and if you just want to fly you’re an ********* to your commander (“you mean you don’t want to be just like me?”). No I don’t want to be like you…I want to be an expert aviator. Look at the bios of some of these guys…gone are the days where a commander had thousands of hours. They’re too busy climbing the “ladder.” I’ve grown very tired of “leaders” telling me what’s “good for my career.” How about you let me decide what’s good for me…there’s a novel idea. Everyone knows that if you fly for 20 straight years the likelihood of making O-5 is greatly decreased. And you know what…some dudes are actually OKAY with that. With few exceptions, you know what the bros and I call O-5s and above...POLITICIANS. People would rather send a ****ing e-mail than get up, walk five feet, and have a face-to-face. I guess it's easier to be a prick in an e-mail. The whole experience is shaping up to be BS...and I'm not just a complaining b!tch because I didn't "get my way." Dudes are BAILING at record numbers, especially now as some airlines begin to move. And yes, even patches. There is no 100% solution in life, but SWA sure seems better than this. In 6 years in I have never seen morale this low. Of course when we fly its all business and EVERYONE gets the job done. But when you land, dudes are despondent at best. No one seems to be able to make any sense of it. People in positions of influence acknowledge a problem, but never do anything to really fix it...they're too worried about that next promotion or assignment. I have yet to see an O-5 or above make any move that wasn't the "safe" play, regardless of whether it was good for the unit or dudes. Military flying is a dream if you get to, however, Guard or Reserves...Guard or Reserves...that's all I'm going to say about that.
You speak the truth brother! I'm on terminal leave on 10 September and transferring to the AF Reserve. Here at Columbus in SUPT world, dudes and dudettes are leaving in droves. Any bets on when stop loss starts?
08-27-2007 | 06:11 PM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
I tried to PC in the summer of 04. I was approved, but ended up not using it and seperated at the end of my UPT committment to join the Guard and fly for FDX. Yes, I was lucky in that respect and fully appreciate it.
I left the AF for reasons other than dissatisfaction with leadership. I had 3 ops tours, and only had one guy in any chain of command I didn't get along with. We didn't see eye to eye personally, but we got along just fine professionally.
I loved my time in the AD, and received excellent support from my chain (all the way to Wing CC) in rushing different Guard units. I was in an OT squadron full of "lifers," WIC grads, and high-speed dudes. ALL of them helped me out extensively, encouraged me to stay in (with no repercussions, or so they said), and fully supported my decision once I made it.
My only point to adding to this conversation is not to say y'all aren't dealing with alot of BS, it's to say that it's not like that all over the USAF. While I have my issues with the way the AD USAF and the Guard do some things, I think, overall, both are in good hands.
I left the AF for reasons other than dissatisfaction with leadership. I had 3 ops tours, and only had one guy in any chain of command I didn't get along with. We didn't see eye to eye personally, but we got along just fine professionally.
I loved my time in the AD, and received excellent support from my chain (all the way to Wing CC) in rushing different Guard units. I was in an OT squadron full of "lifers," WIC grads, and high-speed dudes. ALL of them helped me out extensively, encouraged me to stay in (with no repercussions, or so they said), and fully supported my decision once I made it.
My only point to adding to this conversation is not to say y'all aren't dealing with alot of BS, it's to say that it's not like that all over the USAF. While I have my issues with the way the AD USAF and the Guard do some things, I think, overall, both are in good hands.
08-27-2007 | 10:07 PM
#16
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 25
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From: BBJ Evaluator
Has anyone here tried to Palace Chase and been denied? Furthermore, and more to the point, what type of repercussions have you seen after "showing your cards" and not getting the PC...365 remotes? office duty?
I'd love to hear anything out there...PM me if you'd like.
Thanks fellas!
I'd love to hear anything out there...PM me if you'd like.
Thanks fellas!
My advice: Do not show your cards, unless you are absolutely positive that you no longer want to make the AF a career. My suggestion: HAND CARRY your paperwork thru!! Your leadership does not have to concur with your decision to get out, but they CAN NOT sit on it. It is up to AFPC to determine whether you get approved or not...NOT YOUR BASE LEADERSHIP.
Pirate PM me for details, I'm having difficulty getting PM to work.
08-28-2007 | 01:23 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,772
Likes: 1
From: 744 CA
Sounds like the same BS I put up with 15+ years ago. Same sheet of music....slightly different tune. Even then career aviators were few and far between and discouraged. I showed my cards too early and spent the last 5 months on active duty GROUNDED. Wing Commanders policy, was NOT to allow separating aircrew to fly unless they were mission essential, some IP's and ALL EP's. Unfortunately for me the first gulf war had gotten in the way of my IP upgrade slot at the Rock so...... ride the pine. the AF was always a political animal, but sounds even more so now. Still the finest bunch of pilots I ever flew with.
08-28-2007 | 01:55 AM
#18
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: 737 FO
It's not like that everywhere for those separating. Where I'm at leadership was more than helpful and I was able to complete the VSP application start to finish on a Friday afternoon. And I've flown close to 700 hours since I dropped my VSP paperwork.
Now I won't dispute negative effects to your career if you drop your paperwork and it gets turned down and you end up staying in.
Now I won't dispute negative effects to your career if you drop your paperwork and it gets turned down and you end up staying in.
08-28-2007 | 07:23 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 548
Likes: 0
From: Retired 767 Captain
Boys (and girls), nothing changes...40 years ago I put in my papers to resign my commission. I was a "regular" with 8 years of service in the USMC. I joined the cadet program to fly airplanes, and the longer I stayed in, chances of good, quality flight time became less and less. I went from being one of the "good guys' to a "$hit bird" over night. My last assignment was the job (not the rank, but the job) of "First Lieutenant". For those of you not blessed with knowledge of Naval service, that equates to "Head Janitor". I got out and flew for the airlines for 30 years, enjoying every minute of it (check rides and ground school excluded).
