Marine Corps As Fashion Police
 

From Associated Press:

OCEANSIDE, Calif. - The Marine Corps is taking on the role of fashion police.

Earlier this year, the Marine Corps commandant updated the regulations on what Marines can and cannot wear, on duty and off, in the United States. Among the fashion don’ts: No shiny metal or gems on your teeth, no designs carved in your hair, no flashy jewelry and no bare midriffs or excessive cleavage.

But it is Gen. James T. Conway’s ban on the wearing of camouflage uniforms, or “cammies,” off base that is getting the most attention, changing not only the appearance of the Marines, but also the look of their communities.

Under the new regulation, Marines in camouflage cannot get out of their vehicles to run an errand or grab a meal on their way to or from the base. No pumping gas, running into the post office or picking up a cup of joe, either.

Although Marines were always largely prohibited from wearing uniforms off base, they were allowed to make brief stops during their commutes. Now they can stop only for a medical emergency, a traffic accident or a breakdown.

Fast food drive-thrus packed
Around Oceanside, a community about 35 miles north of San Diego where Marines from neighboring Camp Pendleton are a common sight, the most noticeable effect is at fast food drive-thrus. Long lines are forming because Marines in uniform are not allowed to get out of their cars and go inside.

John Alexander, who works at GI Joe’s, a military surplus store, said customers don’t drop in during the middle of the day anymore, though business picks up in the late afternoon.

“There’s no such thing as a quick trip anymore,” he said.

Navy Senior Chief David Matthews, 39, said the scene is the same in Jacksonville, N.C., outside Camp Lejeune. Matthews said some Marines and Navy personnel have come up with creative ways to run errands during duty hours.

“They get a buddy who has civilian clothes on to go with them. They drive and wait while their buddy gets out of the car and runs the errand,” he said.

Strict punishments
Marines caught in uniform off base can get a warning; for repeat offenses, they can be restricted to their barracks and their pay can be docked.

While the military has always had strict guidelines for what service members can wear, even out of uniform, Conway said the updated regulations are about maintaining Marine “uniformity and pride in appearance.”

“It wasn’t that Marines were blatantly breaking the rules. It was more of a tradition, and we just needed to get it back in the box, put it in writing and say here’s the policy, here’s the rules,” said Staff Sgt. Jesse Lora, a spokesman at Camp Pendleton.

Earlier this year, the Marines banned extra-large tattoos below the elbow or the knee, saying such body art is harmful to the Corps’ spit-and-polish image.

Some businesses are getting creative to cope with the no-cammies-off-base rule, which was issued in July.

In Oceanside, the Colimas Mexican Restaurant, popular for its takeout lunch, now runs a sort of carhop service for Marines, who call in their orders and then wait in their cars for delivery out front.

Andrea Cerda, who works at Dorothy’s Military Shop, a tailor shop, said it is not uncommon to see Marines changing clothes in their car, wriggling out of their pants and boots and into civilian wear.

“You see them bending around their steering wheel or moving back and forth in the driver’s seat and you know what they are doing,” she said.

During a quick trip recently to drop off dry cleaning in Oceanside, Lance Cpl. Nicholas Doucakis, 20, had to change clothes on base. He said the regulation didn’t bother him.

“If you are a Marine, they want you to look a certain way,” he said. “I guess in a way they don’t want you to look like a disgrace to society.”

Looser rules for Army, Navy personnel
As for other branches of the military, Army soldiers can wear combat uniforms off base, and Navy personnel can wear some uniforms off base and off ship.

Under the updated Marine regulations, women are prohibited from baring their midriffs, wearing any lingerie-type clothing on the outside or wearing low-slung pants or blouses that show excessive cleavage.

“On the topic of wearing lingerie as outerwear, is the commandant kidding?” said TV style guru Tim Gunn of Bravo’s “Project Runway.” “Has this really been an issue? Surely, the Marines aren’t accepting Britney into their ranks.”

it is a good thing

it makes it a pain when you are leaving work and want to run into a store real quick but it is just one more thing that sets the Marines apart and I like it. For some reason it always irked me to see two soldiers cruising through the mall in their camis

I didn't realize that the ban on wearing cammies out in the civvie world was something new. When I was in, we couldn't wear cammies off base, except to commute to/from. When did they start allowing it? I was in 89-93, and maybe it was a local rule, as I was a grunt stationed in K-Bay Hawaii.

Stonefly

Set's the USMC apart? How does the rule accomplish that? While I understand the need for uniformity and standardization let's make standard the wear of uniforms throughout the uniformed services. A properly worn and serviceable set of utilities or flight suit does not shed a negative light on the member nor the service. I get more questions and thank yous by stopping for gas in my flight suit than I do if I'm in civilian clothes. I never understood the Navy's policy on green nomex jackets and flight suits not being allowed in public off base except for those quick stops to and from work. It's just one more QOL issue that they choose to stick back in the eye's of the Sailors and Marines who do thier job so well. I hate to say it but the Army and the AF have this one right. According to the latest Navy uniform regulations, I can't even wear my green flight jacket to the NEX. How silly is that one?

Hell when I was in the AF I think I wore my "blues" less than ten times in 7 years..... owned ONE set of BDU's...... I went probably 3 years at one point only wearing flight suits...... in my opinion the AF has that right.

Sudden rule change
 

The Officers' Club at Patrick AFB used to have a ban on flight suits; (the membership was 90% retirees, few of whom were pilots). One day, a new General took over the Eastern Test Range and promptly went flying with us. Afterward, he suggested adjourning to the Club to "debrief" and was discreetly informed of the policy. He said: "Oh, yeah? We'll see about that!"

Two thoughts (1) "A *****ing Marine is a happy Marine")
(2) Don`t like the Marines dress code? Go join the Air Force.

Yeah I totally agree here. I think it is completely ridiculous to wear cammies (BDU's) in public under any circumstances. As far as I'm concerned if you aren't a recruiter or you aren't participating in some sort of public function that requires your uniform you shouldn't wear it. The only time I ever wore my work uniform out in public was when I absolutely had to stop and get gas or I wouldn't make it home (Nine times out of ten I accomplished this at the on-base gas station).

I just don't see letting any Marine wear a uniform off-base for no reason to be a good idea. Any time I was on recruiter's assistance and I had to wear my uniform in public I felt like a target. Everybody and their mother wants to walk up and debate the war or the current administrations policies with you. I've had people tell me that what I did over there was a complete waste and nobody wanted to waste more money on this "pointless war" (Never mind lives). It's just not worth the risk to have a bunch of Privates and PFC's (Or strategic LCpl's) walking around just asking to be interviewed by the media, in uniform. To me (And it seems most of the Marines on this board) it is pointless and unprofessional to wear your work uniform in public.

P.S - The policy on this was always a little bit fuzzy and it was generally assumed that you couldn't wear utilities in public under any circumstances. I think it was about three years ago that they put it in writing that if you were either stopping to get gas, stopping for baby food or diapers, or a very select few other situations you could wear cammies off base. I think this new policy just erased the old one. However, the authorization for gas and baby food etc. might have been a MCAGCC (29 Palms) base thing and not Marine Corps wide.

Good thing the Corps has their eye on the ball during wartime...just like the AF, worried about uniform regs when there are still battles to be fought.

Well, I have a 2.5 hour drive to my base...so stopping for gas, or a quick bite is just an everyday thing. I've had many of people ask me questions about where I'm base, what I do, etc. People have asked me for phone numbers to the unit, and I'll gladly give it to them...some call, some join, some toss them. When I was a loadmaster I was making this trip daily for a while, and people saw the flight suit and would ask me about it...especially being a female. Now as a crew chief I don't do it as much, but it still turns heads especially with the new ABU's. But if you are a mature enough person this can be a really good recruiting tool. Wearing it for a cruise through the mall for hours may be a bit excessive...but stopping for gas? Come on. This is kind of rediculous.

What's old is new again?

When I was in (back in what seems like 1847) Marines couldn't wear cammies or bags off base. The good news was that you didn't have to wear the ****-cutter (cover) either.

I agree... gas... lunch... or a quick errand shouldnt be a problem. Off base BARS...NO... grocery store...NO.... the MALL....NO.... but to and from work or the aforementioned.... I dont see a problem. I do remember when my brother was flying SH-60B's for the Navy that he would wear his Khakis to the base.. then change into his flight suit.... just seemed weird to me.

That is just completely idiotic! It's been threatened here at Oceana as well. I just don't see the issue in it, or why the AF, who is noteably more anal than the Navy and Marine Corps about most things, can wear their flight suits anywhere. I just laugh!

Yeah, just because there are troops in harms way everything else can just be forgotten until we are once again "at peace" and can turn our focus again to totally trivial matters.

That was not the intent of what Hacker was saying at all. Perhaps you might be able to enlighten us all on why not wearing cammies or flight suits off base contributes to good order and discipline or morale for that matter. Please....

It has everything to do with good order and discipline, and nothing at all to do with morale. It is about the image that the service, the Corps in this case, wishes to project. The rationale when I was on active duty was that cammies are a field uniform, not a uniform to project the Marine Corps image out in public. Is this rational? Does it matter if it is rational or not? Does the fact that there are men and women in harms way in Iraq and Afghanistan (and who knows where else) mean that the services should turn a blind eye to the good order and discipline of the service men and women who are not so deployed? How does not allowing Marines Stateside to wear cammies in public effect those Marines involved in combat operations? The Commandant of the Marine Corps is Commandant to all Marines, not only the ones in combat (although I am sure that they are first in his thoughts).

Just my two cents.

Stonefly

Add/Edit: Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what the intent of Hacker's post was.

I tend to disagree here. When it comes to uniforms, regulations, or pretty much anything that has any sort of link to any part of the history of the Corps the Marines become more anal than anybody.

I'm sure any of the above posters that served in the Marine Corps can attest to being verbally berated by senior ranking Marines not even in their unit for the most 'trivial' of details. Ever have your radio on in your car and not hear colors sounded? How about taking a sip of water while you're walking? Anybody ever been told to put their cover on while in a car? Or had a Chief Warrant Officer stop his car to yell at you for five minutes because you didn't notice the faded blue sticker on his windshield and thus didn't render a proper salute?

And no, you're not just subject to these anal rules just in boot camp or your first year or two in the fleet. Every Marine is subject to this stuff. In fact, I've seen a LCpl correct (Tactfully mind you!) a Colonel for wearing his cover in an uncovered area. I'm not complaining by any means, this is the way things should be (In the Corps at least) but I think most soldiers and airmen (or sailors that aren't corpsman) don't realize how absolutely strict the Marine Corps is in every aspect of your day to day life, on duty or off.

P.S - Saying that we should completely forget about our stateside uniform regulations just because we're deployed in a combat situation is ridiculous.

*EDIT* - I completely agree with Stonefly. That is what I was trying to get across.

Hacker,

I think the AF Deployed AOR folks have it wrong- we are either in Garrison- allowed families and booze or we are in combat and most rules designed for Garrison don't apply. The USMC is correct, it's a Garrison issue they are re-emphasizing. Here's a good one- at the main OIF out of country but in theater base a fellow dreamed up a sign- "don't walk on the rocks due to erosion". It was a joke put in for the req'd in-brief for aircrew. After a few months the purity police started enforcing the erosion rule (which had spread by WOM in the chow halls...).

2 very different branches of service.

It by no means means that the Corps should turn a blind eye to good order and discipline...but what good does it accomplish by making life harder for people who have the utmost pride for their service? Those same people also have the utmost pride in the wear of their uniform. What harm is done by allowing a Marine to go grab a bite to eat on a drive home/lunch break, or pump gas? It doesn't have anything to do with the soldiers overseas either. What I'm pretty sure was meant, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that rather than taking away another ounce of freedom...spend more time worrying about what the real task at hand should be. If people were going out with their uniforms falling apart, torn, etc...then it's a respectable issue. And I don't think many would disagree with no going out for hours at a time in uniform, but a short lunch break? And people wonder why morale in a lot of places is shot to hell.

Spartan - The point is, what good does it serve to not allow service members the option of wearing their uniforms to/from work and to make quick stops when needed for gas/food etc. What bad can possibly come from a uniform worn properly in public. It isn't as if the Marine haircut doesn't give you away, or the sticker. While I don't agree that its ok to relax standards while at war, I think the standard is just "NON STANDARD" amongst the services and its moronic. I completely disagree with the policy and think it's a complete waste of paper and ink that it's written on. Am I saying you should wear the uniform you wore out in the field for the previous 2 weeks, no, not at all. I'm just saying common sense should apply.

Here is another way to look at it: High standards can increase morale. It is a function of pride.

Stonefly

What kind of 'high standard' is telling your people they have to wear civilian clothes to work then change, then work, then change to be able to stop somewhere on the way home and pick up kids at daycare, or whatever. I'm all for high standards but that just doesn't pass the sanity check. Now if you're saying it's because the uniform doesn't look good or is not presentable, I'll buy that but I don't think that's the case.

Oh, so now its a field uniform and not a working uniform. I see how it is. I'll agree to disagree........heaven forbid I wouldn't want to not look like a recruiting poster. Hear the sarcasm here :)

BD, this is just one thing that we'll have to agree to disagree on. To me wearing cammies in public is wrong. We are allowed to wear Charlies, Alphas, and Deltas however. Our camouflage utilities are a field uniform (I call it work because the field was my job). To us a Marine in cammies off base would probably be the same as a soldier walking around in a flak and kevlar. It makes as much sense to me to wear cammies off base as it does to you to be prohibited from it.

Jenn - If we start relaxing our professional standards it does affect good order and discipline. Not wearing utilities off base is one of those "That's the way it was, that's the way it is, and that's the way it is going to be." things. There is no reason to change it, we see it as unprofessional and it's pretty much a unanimous decision from all Marines past and present (I'm sure some people disagree but only out of convenience, not principle)

Well, that's fine. I'm proud to be able to wear my uniform in public on the way to and home from work. As long as yall agree and get your job done then whatever floats your boat, at least the AF hasn't turned to such nonsense...yet.

Sorry Jenn, nonsense or not the Marine Corps didn't just all of a sudden start doing this stuff. It has been going on for centuries now. We're just a small select group of anal retentive historians ;)

And c'mon, you guys have too gone to nonsense! What's up with those tiger stripes? :D

Well I have to agree with you there. lol. The new uniforms are a bit extreme, and I still can't get used to it...but at least we can wear them in public! Even if we do look like tigers. Roar!

I always thought that Air Force cammies should be black with yellow taxi lines and hold short stripes.

Well of course its a field uniform, but then I thought the colors and camoflage patterns would have given that away!

Not every one of us in the army goes cruising around the malls. When I'm done with playing GI Joe for the day, I change into my civies before I even get to my car. I hate people trying to thank me for something I haven't done (go over seas). I guess I should've joined the Marines cause I have a lot of the same views as 'em

You do not have to have gone overseas to be deserving of thanks. The fact that you are serving is reason enough!

Stonefly

Obviously, someone didn't see the sarcasm portion of that post!

We get our NWU's (Navy Working Uniform's, the Navy's version of the digital cammies) in the spring of '08 :cool:. Currently our E-6 and below are authorized to wear their "Dungarees" off base on a limited basis. I fear that since Uncle Sam's Misguided Children are no longer able to wear their cammies off base our COC will do the same. Those da*n Marines!!!! Mess it up for eveyone. ;):)

The worst thing that ever happened to Marine cammies is the addition of the name tapes. It happened just a while after the First Gulf War. Then there was talk (rumor?) of Marines wearing berets. Thank God that didn't happen!

It will probably only apply to Corpsmen. Even then they are pros at BSing their way out of trouble with the Marines. I don't see why they are giving all of you guys our uniforms though, I would think only the sailors serving with us should need them (Or even have them).

Stonefly - You don't like the name tapes? I like them but it is kind of funny how they are at an angle now ;) That's another thing that separates a Marine serving in combat from a garrison Marine. For us (Infantry) we are issued a bunch of cammies without name tapes before the deployment. Most of us only take one pair of taped ones for the return home and don't wear them the whole deployment. I can really tell by looking through my closet which cammies I wore in Iraq, they look terrible :D

I actually agree with "Task Force Uniform(s)" recommendation to switch our working uniform to cammies. There's actually a good reason. I have to agree with you on the sailors BSing their way out of trouble. I'm frankly tired of it. I hope an unintended benefit of switching our working uniform is a sense of military pride. We suck when it comes to pride and professionalism, however, I'll put our technical expertise and our "can-do" spirit in the aviation maintenance arena against any service. Our military bearing sucks-a** though. BTW, I love (I mean LOVE) it when I catch young Marines messing up. And boy do they. I just spoke to a PFC who was standing watch in our Navy building with no cover, leaning on the podium with both elbows, and giving a "Kill" for every request to come aboard. I love the enthusiasm but I take a moment to remind them they are standing a watch in a Naval facility with all services present and that they need to use proper NAVY terminology. It's fun working with Marines. This isn't my first tour either. My director is a LCOL and I have two MGySgt's in my office. Let's just say that it's pretty interesting. I will say this though, when it comes to a battle of wits those two Top's have their hands full with me.

Nah, I hated the nametapes! Part of my resistance was tradition, traditionally we didn't wear them. Another reason was the anonymity. Instead of someone saying "Hey, Marine!" into a crowd, now they could single you out. Finally, if you got back late from Kinville the night (morning) before, and didn't have a uniform ready, you could always borrow one. I like the fact that the Marines haven't festooned their uniforms with a bunch of patches and what not, a Marine is a Marine. There is only one insignia that matters, the Eagle, Globe and Anchor! The set of my cammies (I only had two sets of the old school "chocolate chip" deserts and only wore one during the ground war portion)from Kuwait were all oil stained from the burning oil fields.

Semper Fi!

Yeah, but even "real" Marines (the Grunts) have issues with the Wing nuts!

Right up until the point at which they need Close Air Support and hear the sound of pointy nose jets overhead!

I wear the utilities every day for work, the two times in the past 3 years I wore my charlies was for a promotion picture and a change of command. We did have a CGI a couple months ago and I had to break out the alpha's, first time I wore them since I reported almost 3 years ago.

Technically, since utilities are a "field" uniform, my uniform of the day should be charlies. But, its not. Everybody at my command wears utilities, except the career planner.

So, I change my clothes twice a day. Add in PT during the work day, and its easily 4 or 5 times a day. That's a lot of wasted time. The NEX gas station is more expensive than the Wawa down the street, so I don't use it except when I'm no kidding on empty.

This past weekend my wife drove my truck and left me with less than a quarter tank, and I wore my utilities home on Friday so I wore them on Monday morning. I was swamped at work and forgot about it, then PT'd at the end of the day, and left work right after PT, got in the truck, saw the gas gauge and thought "oh ****." I made it home, but geeze, what a pain in the butt. And my wife wonders why I don't like the cars getting below 1/4 tank.

I really don't have a problem with the new rules except for the part about pumping gas. ATM, food, even dry cleaning you can use the drivethrough. Not too many full service stations around any more. I just really need to hawk the gas gauge now and probably cut my wife off from driving my truck.

Contrary to the article in the original post, in 10 years in the Marines I've never been able to walk in to a fast food joint, or go grocery shopping, or go shopping anywhere. It was my understanding that we could use the drive-through, use an ATM, pump gas, and make stops at daycare or buy necessities such as milk or bread. That's it. I don't have a problem with that.

If Marines were violating those rules they were wrong and their leadership should have taken care of it.

There is a rational application of this. The whole issue comes down to discipline. You tell a Marine to do this or that, regardless if it makes sense or not, because it instills discpline. While today he may ***** about not being able to stop for gas in his uniform, tomorrow you may need to tell him to take a machine gun nest, and just as much as he learns some discipline from it, you also learn who you can count on by how much they obey the rules that don't make any sense.

Or until they get the opportunity to play with us, and witness 8 hours of mission planning and 2 hours of briefing for a 1 hour flight followed by a 2 hour debrief (ie, lessons learned). I think the exact quote was "holy ****, I had no idea you guys actually worked this hard..."