AFRES & Airline job
 

Hey guys!
I was talking with an American pilot a few days back and he suggested that I join an AFRES unit and work part time along with a regional job after CFI-ing for a little while. How does working as an AF pilot play in to working as a civilian airline pilot? When I get the time, my #1 regional choice is XJET. Hopefully being based in ONT or LAX. Commuting is not something that I'd be too fond of so if I joined with a reserve unit, I'd hope for the KC-135 or C-17 unit out of March ARB. What steps will I have to go through to achieve flying for the reserves? If out of some fluke I wash out, will I be put into another job? Or, could I just walk away? What benefits come with working military and civilian? Once in, do I get to pick where I want to go and what I want to fly?

1. You get hired by a specific unit from the beginning, so if you get hired at March you will be flying the KC-135 or C-17 (depending on which Squadron hires you). You will go to UPT the envy of your class, since you will know your base and airframe long before your active duty classmates.

2. If you wash out, you will be out of the Air Force (if you want). The Air Force doesn't need officers that aren't in crew positions.

3. Benefits: the best and worse of both. When you get sick of one, work more for the other. If you're furloughed, you still have your reserve job and can possibly go full time so you're not out on the street. Most importantly, Serving your country.

4. Getting hired: Get your degree, have an officer accessions recruiter start your hiring package and then start meeting with Squadron Ops Officers. For more information, baseops.net (direct link http://www.baseops.net/archive/archiveupt.html)and wantscheck.com have a wealth of information about getting a pilot slot.

I'm in that reserve unit out of march, and there are some of us younger pilots that do fly for regionals as well as do the reserve thing. Baseops has a good bit of info for the specifics on what the process is to get a flying spot in reserves or active duty. But, before any of that you need to have a 4 year degree. So to answer some of those other questions you have....

If you washed out of training, you would most likely be released from your commitment ( i think), or maybe put on inactive status We dont' have much need for you if you can't fly for us.

One of the many benefits of the having the military thing is that if you should come across some rough times at your civilian job, you can usually find a little extra compensation with the military flying.
If you come to fly for the reserves, you will fly whatever that unit that hired you flies. So, obviously you'd want to do some research. The reserves works a little different than active duty, so again do some research on that topic. You apply and interview at units that have the type of airplanes that you'd like to fly, and are in the location that you'd like to live, because when they hire you, that's where you'll be (in most cases).
Any other questions, ask away...

Something to consider since you brought up commutes and job prospects:

In SOME Guard/Reserve units that fly airframes like the C-17 you will also likely to be put on seasoning orders for about a whole year after you're done with UPT and initial qualification training. The kind of money you'll be making on said year (AD pay just like you did during UPT and FTU) will be VERY comfortable and will make you think twice about working for a regional if you could swing the bumming/troughing lifestyle once you get off orders. Of course that possibility is entirely dependent on the particular unit's money pot (availability of man days) and the competition, and pecking order for said days.

Also, the option to work a regional job and a guard/reserve gig is not such a simple/obvious choice either. If your unit and your assigned domicile at the regional are different (highly likely), then you'll have to make a determination on where you're physically going to live. There are pros and cons to either choice, but as a young guy, without enough time to go to a major, commuting to the unit is not a great idea. Currency usually becomes an issue for dudes who commute to the unit, and when you throw in variables such as Wx cancels at the unit, it makes for a scheduling hassle every month. If you think about it, if you're gone from home a lot at the regional as it is, adding several trips to the unit effectively puts you at less than 6 days at home, most weekends gone included.

On the other hand, if you do live in the unit city and commute to the regional..well, good luck with that too. Commuting to a reserve line at a regional is not most civilian types' cup of tea, imagine what it can be to a dude with 2 jobs.... A dude trying it at my unit cost him more to go to work at the regional than what he brought home from it.

I bring all of this up because you said you were not too fond of commutes. I'll be finishing training in the spring and I am a low-time dude, and decided to bum instead of trying to work for a regional. The thought of commuting to reserve at a regional (gone from home) for effectively less than what I can make at McDonalds (in which I would be at home every night mind you)working PART-TIME (holy sh$t), when you account for all the mil leave and the reduced min guarantee, made me decide bumming was way a better deal. Of course things can change and the money pot can run dry at the unit, but if that happens I would still take some schmuck desk job in town and continue to fly part-time for the unit and sleep on my own bed rather than be gone half the year for what I can make at the corner Mickey Ds at home.

My advice, don't commute. Of course that would be sound advice if you could snag a major job and could effectively move to that domicile and min run the guard job. But for a regional, I'd say if you can snag a guard/reserve job stay in the unit city and just bum, forego the regionals altogether, the upgrade time is competitive at the unit and most regionals won't beat it. Yeah the log book won't fatten up as quick, but what's two years in seniority (for a job without lateral career options) when you're taking a paycut anyways. Maximize your time in your own bed, you're paying for it might as well use it. Good luck man.

Thanks for the replies guys! I have a few more questions:

-What would be the minimum commitment?
-About how long to upgrade?
-If I do fly for a regional and reserves part time, when would I fly and what sort of things would I do on those flights?
-Do the reserves get called up for deployment?
-Say I do a 4 day trip(civilian) then have 3 days off, am I at the base those 3 days flying?
-What's the pay like?
-How long will it take to actually start flying the plane I'm assigned in the reserves?

-What would be the minimum commitment?
-- Ten years from UPT graduation.

-About how long to upgrade?
-- About 2 years +/- 6 months.

-If I do fly for a regional and reserves part time, when would I fly and what sort of things would I do on those flights?

Depends on the airframe. Most units have a weekly flying schedule, to include certain night flight schedules. This is for local training and does not include TDYs, mobilizations and any other kind of overseas type of excercises some folks at the unit may be involved with/volunteer for. I can't speak for all airframes but as far as the co-pilot side, you know, standard (gear, blame for anybody's bad landing/airmanship, paperwork qweep, and radios). All that aside, we get less stick time than co-pilots at the airlines (where it's mostly every other leg), at least from my experience at the schoolhouse. Of course that's more AC dependent than anything. The ACs and IPs of course get beaucoup stick time. Overall it's more relaxed on the Reserves side than on AD though, so you might still get more stick time as a co on a Guard/Reserve unit than if you were AD. The reserve QOL after chocks in is, of course, diametrically better.

-Do the reserves get called up for deployment?

Yep. Ops tempo depends on unit, airframe, taskings and the alignment of the moon. It all depends. If you're asking about non-voluntary mobilization, not happening much that I know of. Everything so far has been on a voluntary basis; so it's not the flying club of the 90s but it's not the Army "Reserve" either. Unless another 9/11 happens I dont foresee any non-vol tasking popping up. Things will continue to cool down with the next administration, but so will the availability of jobs.

-Say I do a 4 day trip(civilian) then have 3 days off, am I at the base those 3 days flying?

Not necessarily. You can request (more like tell them) mil leave to attend to your military commitments. Most units want you there on UTA or "drill weekend", so if you had a trip then you would request mil leave to attend, essentially dropping that trip at the airline. Or you may choose to complete your training during your days off at the airline, where your description of "3 days flying at the base' would be more acurate. Good luck with that though, from a QOL perspective. Ballpark, most people who do the regionals drop trips because it pays more per day to work at the unit than at the regional, and still want some semblance of a life. Most major carrier types do the opposite, they lose money when they mil drop to work at the unit, so you might see those types do their events on days off. Then again they may still want QOL and mil drop trips at the airline at a loss but to retain days off. Everybody has a priority when it comes to those iterations. Also most units have a plan for the upcoming month somewhat in advance so people can plan ahead, particularly with the airline dudes.

-What's the pay like?

Once again, depends. The absolute minimum guarantee for a pilot in the guard/reserve is 48 drill periods, 48 Training periods, 14 days of annual training. That's about 13K for a 1LT married. Everybody does more than the min though, so depending on how much extra sh$t you do then the pay goes up from there. How many man days you get, TDY you volunteer for, if you get put on orders, etc etc is up to you and the unit, and of course the pecking order at said unit as well. As a 1LT if you make about 40-45K you had a great year..that's about 4 man days a week plus the guaranteed periods, which you won't get [4 man days/wk] if there's more than one of ya fighting for the same pot, but can be attainable. If you can find a set of orders (like for a year) you're set then, as it is AD pay without the AD qweep. There are also the full-time jobs at the unit; hard to come by, unlikely for a new guy to be considered for them, but are federal GS scale jobs along with all the trimmings of govt cheddar jobs. You can make 6 figures in less than 10 years of working that position and be home every night. You'll have to fight me too for one of those though (yummm cheddar..). That's the jist of it.

-How long will it take to actually start flying the plane I'm assigned in the reserves?

Initial qual in the aircraft will be about 0 months through 1 year after UPT graduation depending on many factors. UPT dates could be zero months to a year+ from commissioning date, and commissioning date could be 1.5 months through 2 years+ from hire date. So plan accordingly.

I will answer some of your questions directly from what January 08 looks like for me. Keep in mind I'm a KC-135 guy, and because of training requirements specific to the KC-135, I can stay current in my airframe by flying one sortie a month (something you can't do in most other airframes), but I do more anyways because I like the flying and the money. C-17 you will be expected to be there more.

Fly whenever you want, as long as you help your (Reserve) scheduler out when he's shorthanded every once in a while (In return he'll help you out). Usually during the weekdays, there are "local" sorties every day...these are very routine practice air refuelings where you and your reciever (usually a C-17) knock out your training requirements for the month. There are several long range trips or "TDY's" a month, mostly to fun places. You make A LOT of extra money on these trips because of Per Diem. I'm taking a 10 day trip in the middle of the month...in my unit, you aren't told to go on a trip, you're usually competing with other guys who want to go, begging your scheduler to let you go (especially as a 1st or 2nd Lieutenant).

That's why we exist. In fact, the majority of the Air Force's KC-135 fleet is in the Guard and Reserves. Usually there are enough volunteers that no one is forced to go, unless the entire unit is activated. Most people WANT to go because you will make extra money, tax free, and get to see a little bit of the fight.

Only if you want to. I have 4 days off at the end of January and will only commit one of those days to my unit. You can keep all of your days off from your civilian job by taking military leave from your airline...this can be counter productive, as most airlines deduct pay for the days you are gone on military leave, but you will still make more money at your unit that day than your airline deducts from your paycheck. I'm taking military leave this weekend to go to my drill weekend, so two days were dropped from my civilian schedule this week (I was supposed to be on Thursday-Monday). I will make twice as much money this weekend than if I had flown for my airline.

Much Much more than my Regional Airline First Year FO pay.

Thank you so much for all the responses guys! Really helps out a lot.

I am going to throw my $.02 in here...

Beyond everything that you have asked about (all very good questions, by the way), the biggest complaint from the people that I work with (Active Duty), and even myself, is the lack of control over your life. The reserve/airline lifestyle allows you the freedom (past the first year or two in the airline, when you'll be a newbie) to dictate your schedule in a far better manner than AD will, ever.

You are choosing the correct path, in my humble opinion, and if I had "Hindsight being 20/20" then I would have applied for the reserve job and then shot for the airlines. Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is that many reserve folks want to help you get into the airline that you choose. You have been "HIRED" by that unit, therefore, they probably like you and want to help you.

Good luck, I really believe that you are working down the best path

Thanks for the post WAFP. I'm thinking after I instruct here at Riddle for a little bit, I'll head back home to So. Cal, continue instructing out there while trying to mingle my way into the 452nd at March. If I do get the opportunity, then after finishing up training, hopefully get on with XJET. Is this advisable? Or, would you consider getting on with the airline first, then the reserves after and just taking some leave to do training?

If able it's better to get the airline job first. You will continue to accrue seniority and longevity while away for your mil training! Don't delay a UPT slot trying to set it up that way though.

If you are looking to get a job here at march arb, the 452nd is the wing, so that won't do you much good. You'll either want to look at the 729th (C-17s) or the 336th (KC-135s).

How different is it being a full time reservist versus a part time?

One is full time and the other is part time. That was too easy.

Seriously, though, a full time reservist can be either an AGR (on active duty, but permanently assigned to that particular Reserve/Guard unit.) Their pay, benefits, and retirement are essentially identical to the active duty component.

The other way to be full time is ART, or Air Reserve Technician. You are a federal civil service employee (typically GS-13 plus incentive pay) during the week, and work in a military (reservist) status on drill weekends, deployments, etc. It is more complicated that this, but I will keep it simple.

If you are a full timer, you will typically have additional duties aside from flying. Examples are training, scheduling, plans, etc.


If you are a part timer (traditional) Guard member/reservist, you typically fly 4 times per month and do a couple days of ground training, in addition to unit deployments. Once again, this is a simple explanation. There are many variables which affect how much duty you perform as a part timer. These include how much you want to fly/work, the aircraft you fly, the unit mission, whether or not your unit has been activated, etc.

Most part-time pilots work another full time job, whether it be airline pilot, lawyer, engineer, teacher, etc. Some part time pilots, typically the younger ones, and those furloughed from the airlines, will volunteer to work as much as possible, to maximize pay. This is referred to as Bumming or Troughing. You can get the equivalent of full-time pay if you work hard.

Hope this information helps.

Sorry guys, a couple more questions:
-Say after my 10 year commitment, I retire, am I still eligible to get called? Or, am I just another civilian again?
-Is any of this information in writing? Or is it verbal from a recruiter who can tell you what you want to hear?
-Do they pay off your student loans if you have any?

Thanks again, this is really helpful.

ERAUdude,

Here are some answers to your follow up questions:

1. It takes 20 years of Reserve/Guard service to retire (under normal circumstances.) If you get out after 10 years (it would be closer to 11 1/2, because it is a 10 year commitment after you get your wings.), I believe that you resign your commission, and are not subject to recall. I may be wrong about this, however.

If you reach 20 years or more of service, you have 2 options when you retire:
a. retire, and you are subject to recall (unlikely), but your retirement pay will be higher; or
b. resign your commission, and you are NOT subject to recall, but your retirement pay will be slightly lower.

Keep in mind that Reserve retirement pay begins at age 60, not at retirement. There is legislation in the works to make that earlier, but not sure of the status.

You will likely be asked to sign a "contract" that spells out your commitment and obligations. So yes, this information is in writing.

I don't believe that student loan repayment plans are for Officer programs. However, some Guard units (because they have a State mission) have tuition programs for members. Several states offer 100% tuition for State universities for enlisted members, but not sure about officers. I'm sure others will speak up if they know differently.

There is a fairly new GI Bill program called REAP (Chapter 1607) that you would be eligible for if you served more than 90 days in a "Contingency Operation." go to www.gibill.va.gov for more info.

Hope this helps.

Definitely does! Thanks for the info.

Hey fellow pilots,

Sorry to pull Dr. Frankenstein and essentially bring a dead being (this thread) to life once again. But, I had a few more questions that I came up with while talking about this subject with my parentals and my C-17 load master friend from Travis AFB.

If applying for the reserves, why would I be awarded a flying slot (having no prior military experience) over some other individual that attended the Academy with the same goal in mind? Is it mainly because those guys are going AD and I'm going for reserve? Also, if getting an airline job first (unlikely right now), would the company frown upon working for a year and then taking leave to go through Air Force training (is it just something they have to accept because it's military)?

Active duty is different than the Reserves. And both of them are different than the Guard. You are only competing against people who are applying to the same unit. When you apply to a reserve or guard unit as a newbie, they hire you direcly into the position you applied for. You aren't competing with active duty Academy, ROTC, OTS officers, or active duty enlisted guys. Basically, you have the best kept secret in the military (for pilots).

Who cares what the company thinks. You are protected under the Soldiers and Sailors Relief Act of (enter the year of your choice). The law allows you to serve while protecting your job at your civilian company. If you go on active duty long term orders (UPT or some other TDY), your company may only recognize your status for up to 5 years. After that, they will probably let you go. However, if you are are on war orders (a deployment or war), it doesn't matter how long you are gone -- they must give you the same job when you return. While you are gone, you will accrue seniority.

My personal suggestion would be to go to the guard / reserves and go to UPT. Fly as much as you can (move near the unit and become a "local" guy). They will fly you as much as you want (at least I know my units do). They love local guys. In a "few" short years, you'll have more money in your pocket while attaining enough time and experience to apply directly to the majors -- bypassing the regional experience. But if double commuting, crappy work rules, and $22 / hour is your thing, by all means, go commuters.

-Fatty

I have just read this entire thread which, as you said, was pulled from the dead. By my count, it has been over a year now since you have started investigating the Reserves. Just do it already!!! As another poster said, "It's the best kept secret in the military."

I started the process just a few months ago, and with no prior service, was picked up by a unit to fly C-130s. Not saying it was easy, but if you have drive (and you are obviously very interested) and really want it, its yours for the taking.

My advice to you is to talk to an officer recruiter and get scheduled to take the AFOQT and TBAS ASAP! You have no commitment after taking those. All of your questions were great, but its time wasted if you don't stack up against the competition. Get those out of the way, and then get serious about it. Now get out there and be somebody!!!;) Good Luck!

Dan

Thanks guys!

Any idea how the good ole resume would be effected if I was unsuccessful in this venture? And, would there be a significantly larger benefit trying to join up now as opposed to like, in a couple years? I'm 21 and am still very early in my aviation career if that means anything.

Thanks guys!

Any idea how the good ole resume would be effected if I was unsuccessful in this venture? And, would there be a significantly larger benefit trying to join up now as opposed to like, in a couple years? I'm 21 and am still very early in my aviation career if that means anything.

The younger the better in my opinion. I started the process a year and a half ago, and was recently selected for a UPT slot with a reserve unit, and I'm 22. Like other posters have mentioned, if you can get on with an airline before you go off to UPT that would be optimal because you can retain your seniority with the company. I'm not flying for an airline now though, and I'm not going to wait for an airline to hire me for that reason. If you want to wait for an airline to hire you before you go off to OTS you can, theoretically you do have time before you reach the max age of 30, however many people will tell you that whether you get hired is all based on timing. If you wait one year, it may be one year too many. I interviewed twice with the same unit before I was hired. The first time I interviewed with 12 or so other candidates for 2 slots, last time it was 4 candidates for 2 slots. All depends on what your goals and priorities are. Good luck with whatever you do though, I can say that I'm very excited to become an officer in the Air Force, and I think it's a great way to go.

I Have no idea what you mean by asking if your resume would be affected if you were unsuccessful. I can tell you this, every day you sit pondering whether or not to apply, somebody else is. Interviews for guys off of the street only happen once a year at my squadron, so sitting around isn't the way to go. If you are lucky enough to be selected, it may be a year from that point that you even go to OTS. This isn't a short process, so i'd suggest getting started. Although it might be nice to be building seniority at some regional airline while going through UPT, chasing a skywest/expressjet job would be a distant second to getting a pilot slot in the Air Force.
Good Luck

Your civilian resume would not be affected IMO. I would give you credit for at least having tried if I were doing the interview, not everybody can complete UPT.

Also if you do wash out, you can stay in as a ground officer for a few years...this will alleviate any suspicions that you were "unsuitable for military service". Long term, guard/reserves might be the only retirement you get, so I would recommend doing the full 20 in some capacity anyway.

ERAUdude,

Sounds like you are on the fence and you aren't really going to find out any more info without starting the process.

In my squadron it will take you about a year from when you get hired to start UPT. There is a long lead time as there are many requirements discussed on this thread already that need to be done prior to you going to UPT. You need to start talking to a recruiter and rushing units to get a feel for how things are going to work. Every squadron works differently. The best info is going to be learned by seeking it out from the unit you would like to fly for.

You need to make sure that above all the flying stuff, that you actually want to serve your country. We get deployed, fly all over the world and sometimes have no control of your schedule. On the plus side your experiences and friendships made in this kind of flying environment can't be beat. There are a million kids out there dying to do this, so you need to make sure that it is what you want to do before you take a slot somewhere. UPT isnt the place to try out and determine it isnt for you.

I don't understand why somebody would want to opt to work at a regional when you could be making twice as much bumming while accruing flight time. Granted if you're flying Vipers then I can see why somebody would be "attracted" to the idea of time building at a regional, but the pay and hassle just doesn't par up with bumming, assuming that's available to you at the unit. I guess for fighter guys it would be of consequence, for heavy dudes, probably not. At any rate, to go further and suggest one would delay applying to the Guard/Reserves (an age critical pursuit to begin with) so as to snag a seniority number at a regional for the purposes of accruing seniority while you're gone to OTS/UPT/RTU/MQT is just outright retarded.

The opportunity cost of delaying Guard/Reserves applications even one year is far greater than a year of seniority you'd be accruing at a freggin' McDonalds wage regional, since you still make crap when you come off mil leave anyways. Like I said, I make more bumming than most 3rd/4th year regional FOs, which is sad considering how my income is really 'treading water' income and sure as chit wouldn't make me happy if it's the result of vesting 5 years to a place. On top of which, while bumming you're only driving to one job. Commutes, and more dramatically, double commutes can get old fast and the bottom line is that at some point you either have to min run the unit or min run the airline gig, unless you want to min run the family. Can't do all three and that's a fact of life unless your airline gig, guard gig and family are all co-located.

My advice would be to focus on getting a Guard/Reserve gig and forget about regionals. I would do a regional only if military aviation wasn't available to me. But if you're able to get a mil gig, forego the regionals. Even as a viper driver you'd be accruing PIC the second that instrument check gets done; as a mil heavy driver you're must certainly going to upgrade quicker than most regional joints (not just by years, but by the higher total time requirements at the regional too, people forget that).

As to flight time accrual, who cares, SIC is like the runway behind you, nobody is hiring anyways and age 65 won't move the conga line till 2012. If there is a lesson I've learned from watching this industry from the sidelines is that you want to be at the front end of a hiring wave my friend. How, when or who doesn't matter half as much as where you are when the front of the wave comes. That's as close as I've come to understand the myth of hedging against a furlough. Networking through your affiliations with other unit members will go a longer way towards securing a mainline interview than flight time anyways, sucks for others not in your position but that's the truth. So long as you got your 500-1000TPIC by the time this thing starts to pick back up you didn't lose out on anything by NOT pursuing a regional. Of course this is the advice I followed for myself so YMMV.

Can any Air Force recruiter begin putting a packet together? Or, is there a certain recruiter I should be looking for?

You need to talk to an "Officer Assessions Recruiter," one from the Guard or Reserves. Active duty recruiters will not help you get in the Reserves. If you want the one for Travis, PM me.

dude, you seriously need to step out there in the world and dig until you find the answers to your questions. The answer isn't on this website. We can only give our opinions and experiences. Get on the phone and call a recruiter and ask your questions. If you don't like the answers he/she gives, find another one and ask them the questions. Looking back at the earlier posts of this thread, it looks like you want to go to March. They have recruiters on base. This definitely isn't going to fall in your lap. Go chase it until you get what you want and don't take "NO" for an answer. Its gonna take a ton of persistence to make this happen.....

PM'd you

I understand that, I'm using this as another source for research.

Looking at medical requirements, I see they want no history of asthma. I had it when I was about 8 or 9 and it was only heavy activity induced. I'm currently 21 and have not had any asthma problems since then. Do you past/present military guys think this will be an automatic disqualifier for me?

I think the asthma question asks if you've had it since age 12.

In any event, let me give you a quote from Water Boy. "What mama don't know won't hurt her."

Good luck.