Good ATP Schools?
 

Anyone know of a good place to go get an ATP rating? I'm military and have never really flown light twins, so I'm looking for a place that will take this into account. Most (95%) of my experience has been in turbofan, EFIS equipped aircraft on jet routes with a good amount of time spent in terminal areas. I've looked at 'All ATPs' and they seem to have a pretty good program, but I've heard a horror story or two about military guys getting sent to the checkride and being hung out to dry because they didn't know the ins and outs of the GPS or weren't intimately comfortable with prop levers. Are there any military friendly schools out there?
On a related note; are there any military folks out there who have been through this process that can recommend some good gouge to prepare? I'm looking at taking some leave this coming summer to accomplish this, so I've got a few months. Should I just bury my nose in the FAR/AIM, or are there better things I could be doing with my time?
One last question for the civil or mil side: Does anyone know about converting a FAA ATP to an international license? I've heard that an FAA ATP counts as an ICAO ATP -- Can anyone confirm this? If that's true, then that leaves JAA. Are there any schools in North America that offer a conversion course? If so, what kind of a time/money investment am I looking at?

Sorry to be so long winded!! Any info available would be helpful.

Thanks!

I've heard that an FAA ATP counts as an ICAO ATP -- Can anyone confirm this?

Yes this is true...

JAA conversion - don't know anything about this...

ALLATPS - I know many people that have gone with them and done fine. If you have access to a aero club - maynot be a bad idea to log a few hours in a twin thru them to get comfortable before heading to a school...

-LA

this always cracks me up. sorry for the sidetrack but here in AMERICA we lead the way for the world insofar as airlines and airline ops are concerned yet our ATP is considered to be some kind of joke in places like japan or europe.

Kill Bill,

Have you not met any of the slack-jawed mouth breathers coming out of Higher Power with 737 type ratings? Not everyone with an ATP is a professional and could never even make it in Europe/Japan.

Hey Tanker, I was a 135 guy overseas. I just took a week last Christmas and went to the AllATPs in Trenton since it was close to home home. I didn't feel terribly prepared prior since I had never flown a light twin either. I did their 3 or 4 hr program, had the two flights and took the check and passed with no problems whatsoever. The seminole is pretty benign and easy to fly. Kinda reminded me of a prop version of the tweet with a yoke (and only slightly slower...). The examiner was a big fan of military pilots so the oral ended up being pretty easy as well. Seriously, I doubt it could have gotten any easier or more efficient than it did with AllATPs.

For the written test, I just went out and bought the GLEIM ATP written book and looked through it for about two weeks and then took it. You can also do the written through ATPs in a mini course for like another $300.

As for the ATP itself, as LA posted, your FAA ATP is an ICAO ATP. There are some spots that do the JAA conversion courses, several in FL but I can't recall the names. Check out www.pprune.org for JAA conversion info, it's a board big on overseas flying.

Good luck.

Military Trans
 

Agree with other posts. I have bene going through this process...
ATP...writtens can be done lots of ways...study the test bank for 8+ hours and take the test is the method of choice. Drawback is you do not learn the material which could come in handy at an inetrview :D There are lots of prep books that are inexpensive and are very easy reading...easier than trying to absorb FAR/AIM...go to a local pilot store and look at what they have.
ATP flying portion...check out their ops and ask around...there are some outfits out there that have an axe to grind and make it unpleasant. My experience is they are quckly identified, avoided and do not stay in business long. Bottomline...you are paying them money to train you and prepare you for an FAA checkride. You may have to travel a way to find one that everyone likes.
Yes...the US ATP is a ICAO ATP. Be careful of the JAA ATP requirement....very expensive to convert. In my opinion...part of the old boys club mentality from many European countries to exclude everyone else. The FAA accepts other countries ATPs as long as their training meets or exceeds ours...most of Europe only excepts their own training.

Mildenhall or Kadena?

Kadena, the "Keystone of the Pacific" <gag>

ATP school in Columbus
 

Tanker-driver,

I used to fly tankers at McConnell and now fly T-1s at Columbus. Check out this school here in Columbus:

http://www.accessibleaviation.com/

It is owned by a retired AF guy who is a T-37 sim instructor. It is a little bit cheaper than All ATPs. It is a very laid back program, and the check pilots are very big picture. I just did my ATP written, FE written, and ATP checkride with them. They have good test prep software and the checkride was the easiest checkride I've ever had. My only complaint is that being so laid back they kind of dragged the program out for me. But I think its mainly because I live here. I have known lots of people who flew in here from out of town and got done with the program in 4 or 5 days.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the info... Bookmarked for future use...

-LA

Great ATP Experience
 

If you can deal with flying into Presque Isle, ME or into Bangor and driving to Presque Isle there is a great ATP deal up there. A retired B-52 driver (Colonel) does ATPs. You have to get the written done on your own (I went to AllATPs), provide your medical, and proof of hours. I just brought my Air Force printout of hours and Form 8s showing where I became an AC. We basically did everything in one day. It cost me about $1100 bucks plus the cost to fly up there and rent a car and hotel but it was well worth it. Initially, I was turned off by having to go all the way to Maine but when I realized my written test was going to expire and I couldnt get in to AllATPs in time I gave this guy a shot and I'm glad I did. His name is John Trask. If you go to the Presque Isle, ME airport website I think his number is on there. Email me if you want to know more....

I did the 4 day course at All ATP's in Riverside. Went in cold and did the full day cram study with their computer bank Q's for the ATP day 1 and the FE day 2. Fly with a CFI day 3 and take the checkride day 4. The examiner is retired Pam AM, REALLY military friendly, keeps a personal log with callsigns of guys, ect. Myself and 20 other pilots I flew with as IP's all went there with 100% pass rate. After the ride I asked the examiner about the apparent lack of "toughness" with the ride and he responded by saying that in his experience as an examiner, military pilots are at such a high level of performance and standards compared to the civ counterparts that the ATP ride seems easy. And it is, just don't bust a MDA, of course at 90kts you have all the time in the world to overcome the new scan in the Seminole.

Anyone have experience with All ATP in Dallas? I'm looking to possibly knock out the ATP this fall when (if!) I go to KC-135 IP school in Altus and Dallas seems too close to pass up (when traveling from Mildenhall that is!).

Herb at PAS has gotten many mil only guys their ATP. www.prarieairservice.com

All ATPs is who I used back in 1999... they were awesome... quick, straight forward, and got what I paid for... might not be the most experienced instructors... but they guarantee you will pass... and I did... never flown a twin prop before taking that 5 day cram course.

AllATPs in BHM(Jasper, AL)......can't go wrong with that place.

Tanker,
As far as the testing goes, I recommend sheppardair.com, you pay $75, download their program and study. It's a very good study system, they boil it down to the essentials, and GUARANTEE a 90 or your money back. I know about 10 people who used this system, lowest score a 99. I went to CRM in Tempe for the ATP, arrived on Sunday, ground school, sim, training flight on Monday, checkride on Tues, back home on Tues night. It was $1995 when I did it, you need to have test done before you go. They are very mil friendly there, Joe Perry is the guy you need to talk to. Hotel at the airport is Thunderbird Inn, they are a block from CRM and a decent hotel and very reasonable as far as price.

Cautionary tale from ATP land....
 

All ATP's in Dallas is fine. The written is just as everyone has said. Go to Arlington not Addison. The examiner in Addison (at least the one there 2 years ago named Norm) was kind of a tool and seemed to have a problem with military pilots. He hosed me on my checkride during the oral portion (didn't even get to fly) and told me that "You need more reciprocationg engine time." At the time I had 2500 hrs of multi-engine turbine time, all PIC and 1300 of if IP. I have never heard of another story like this so it was probably me stepping on my crank with golf shoes (the old kind) but at least one cautionary tale should find it's way into the mix here. The good news is in the long run if didn't hurt me. I'm now in IOE with a certain fractional ownership company and all it took was a 10 second explanation during my interview that I messed up and moved on. Good luck and take the FE the same time you take your ATP.

I had no problem with them, but that was a few years ago now. I'm sure it's a completely different staff.

My recommendation for the ATP and FE written prep is Sheppard Air (http://www.sheppardair.com). It's completely online and they seem to do an excellent job of weeding out the questions so that you only see the real bank and don't waste time studying things you don't need to know. I think I missed one question on the FE test. Once I was ready, I just found a local FBO that offered testing and completed my tests there. Then I went to All ATPs for the flying.

One thing I'll say about All ATPs, is that your experience really seems dependent on the location and examiner. Most people I know have gone to All ATPs and have widely varying experiences. For example, the evaluator I had couldn't have been more big picture -- in fact he even made the comment that this is the only time you're even going to need to worry about this piston stuff. Others have had examiners who were complete tools. I think the best thing is to check with buds who recently went through (since they turn over staff so much -- esp with regionals hiring) to get the gouge on the best locations.

Sounds like Sheppard may be the way to go. Probably the cheapest too.

FlyHappy-
How much did that FBO charge to take your test? We have a Sylvan Learning center near my house that I think can give the tests. At least they did back in 96 when I took my ppl written.

I downloaded Sheppard on Friday and feel like I will easily get 100% tomorrow morning when I take it at a Lasergrade. I think it will be $80 for the test after $75 for Sheppard.

Now I just have to find a very military-friendly All-ATPs to get the practical. I hear Riverside is good... anybody have any experience there?

Naples Flight Center in Florida might be able to give you some JAA info. MUCH @$$pain! I did the conversion in Europe while stationed here... Yes, expensive but bigger hurdle is even with JAA license one needs right to work in the EU.

Good luck,
Lifter

I took the ATP written at Lasergrade this morning. It cost $90. I got a 99%, but I should have gotten 100%. I went through it too fast, and I just put down the wrong answer on one of the questions that was in the Sheppard test bank. So, for $75 + $90, I used Sheppard and studied for about a day and a half and could have easily gotten 100%.

I will get about $40 back from Sheppard because one of the questions I got had different answers than the gouge on their software, and I told them of a test-bed question that I got. The correct answer was still easy to figure out since I had studied their gouge, but I'll take the money.

This is WAY easier than using a book, and they update their database as guys finish taking the tests finish and give them feedback, so the chances of you getting even one question wrong is pretty slim.

Still looking for gouge on military friendly ATP checkride places in California if anybody has any...

SheppardAir rocks...a couple of nights studying and I got a 100 on the FE exam. Just wish I knew about them when I took my ATP written.

I don't know much about the JAA but in NZ/Aus you will have to convert your ATP over to their ATPL if you want to work there. Also you will need to establish your "residency / right to work" if you want to get a job there. Not easy or cheap.

I know who you are talking about. He's a good guy and I have a good friend that used his course recently. He ended up getting hired at Delta and also had an offer from AirTran. He said the program was well done and the folks there were great to work with.

Sheppard Air and Harry Bishop
 

I used Shepppard air for the test prep. It worked great.

PM me or call baseops or any of the Sqs at McGuire to find more info on Harry who does checkrides on the weekend. Because of his other job he can't charge you a fee. "Tipping" is customary for this type of checkride.

My ATP totals:

Sheppard Air test prep: 75
Test proctoring center fee: 75
Airfare from OKC to PHI: 300 (XC CT in the T-6 was cancelled by new DO)
Airplane rental: 325 (650 split between two examinees)
Tip: 300
Total: 1075

Easy checkride. Easy and educational ground eval.

Regards,
AggiePilot

Being "local" here at McGuire I totally agree, this is probably the best deal out there hands down. I did it and have zero regrets.

I've heard that from more than a few dudes.

I don't remember how much it cost to test -- it wasn't very expensive. I think the FBO I went to was through CATS (http://www.catstest.com/index.html) -- I see on their website they offer a $10 discount for AOPA members. There is also Laser Grade (http://www.lasergrade.com/index.html). I think FBOs that offer testing are through one of those two companies. It's been a few years, but if I remember correctly you registered for the test through the website then showed up at the FBO to take it. The only important thing is to make sure you are signing up for the Pt 121 ATP written and not the Pt 135 ATP written since the test banks are different.

That's funny; I think I flew with Harry back in '99. I was casual at McGuire and did my IFT at the aero club there on base prior to UPT. Harry was the manager on base. I heard that the club has since been shut down (years ago) by the wing CC.

-Sheimer

Eglin Aero Club is still in business and they do ATP Practicals, they have some twin engine planes as well. The only other Air Force AeroClub I can think of that has twins is the Hanscomb aeroclub. Oh wait, Maxwell has a twin at their aeroclub, but also i think they only have two planes total and we've all been to Maxwell, no need to go back

http://www.eglinaeroclub.com/
http://www.hanscomaeroclub.com/

Langley Aerocolub also has a twin and can do ATP Praticals.

Lifter

I did the All ATPS at the Arlington location near Dallas. I went in literally 100% unprepared. They had the program lined up great and 3 days later I had my ATP. They were all easy going and big picture. I'm pretty sure the examiner fell asleep during the sim portion.
The instructors did mention that the program/examiner at the Addison? location in Dallas was tougher and more demanding. I would completely reccommend the Arlington one.
As for the seminole, after seven years flying the herc, it was a joke. I can't see anybody having a problem with it.

Has anyone been through All ATP's out of Raleigh?

I have not, but a guy I worked with used them. He said the examiner gave him a real tough time because he was military. He passed him after much grilling but gave him a "tell your mil buds they can't come here and expect an easy check speech."

It must be nice to have so much money that you are closing the door on one of the biggest 'boys' networks' in the country that are very loyal. Harry is almost booked up for the next 3 months already, and I haven't heard of a harder ATP check making a military pilot any better or worse when/if they fly outside of the military.

By the way, 3 of us are com-airing from CA to NJ for Harry because of his reputation. That guy in Raleigh should tell him how F'd up he must be.

I had Harry for my ATP check last year. Awesome guy. No kidding, YOU NEED ZERO PREP. He will walk you thru everything. Tip is mandatory...don't screw over your buddies later down the line.

To speak of Harry's rep, the day before I flew, 2 guys from McChord flew out for their practical. The week before, 3 C-20 Ramstein guys RON'd in Jersey, got their ATP and flew their G4 to depot for mx. Dudes literally come from all over the world to see him.

Definitely happy with the Sheppard Air prep for the written, although they aren't MAC compatible. I dusted off my vintage 1996 college laptop and was able to download and run their program, slightly slow, but that was okay.

As for the flight, I used AllATP's in Jacksonville. Two day crash course got it done, but not the most pleasant checkride. I was hoping for the prior-military breeze, but got something less than that. Oh well...

what type of plane did you fly the check ride in? Seminole? If/ when I try to hook something up with Harry, I'm just wondering what type of aircraft I can expect to fly, and on average how much prep flying people would recommend. Thanks!

As for the Raleigh guy, well... if his attitude is to lay the "hammer" down on active duty guys, then I guess I'll drive to Jersey. It's unfortunate since Raleigh is only an hour away. I'd rather spend the extra gas money and not have to worry about the heart ache.

How much are people tipping Harry? Money isn't an issue, I just want to know the standard and what to expect; thanks!

Well, this post is two years old now, but does anyone knows if Harry is still on duty ?

Thanks.

Phil