And this is based on what observations? Your particular class? Were you a UPT instructor? I agree it probably saved on a small number of washouts, but you make it sound like it's a huge number. Got any data on washout rates pre-SUPT vs post-SUPT?

finished bottom of my class in tweets - finished 4th overall in T-38s, was told a lot of guys who couldn't understand the tweet went on to rock the 38 - lucky for me my choice heavy was available and didn't have to learn how to drink the weed and act like a 17 year old for the next 10 years of my life - not that there is anything wrong with that and no offense

You might be right but I'm going to go ahead and call bullsh!t anyway. I went through SUPT when it was still new, many of my buds went through UPT. And, surprise surprise, they had exactly the same washout rate we did. As a Tweet FAIP many of the older IPs had been there before the Tone arrived, they said washout rate was the same before and after.

The main point of the Tone wasn't to save weak swimmers, it was to save hours on the 38 fleet after the AF decided to keep it forever. An added advantage was to train crew concept earlier to guys going to crew aircraft.

There may have been a conspiracy to save weak swimmers but like all successful conspiracys it was kept hidden till you revealed it.

There was a rumor pushed around, mainly by the 38 crowd, that you couldn't wash out of tones. It died out about the time people realized the failure rate in phase three was the same in both 38s and Tones (very very small, but there). In my class the only phase three washout was in Tones, though the bottom 38 guy got a Viper and didn't make it.

I've known enough guys like liftr to know that Tweet performance doesn't necessarily accurately predict 38 (or 1) results. If it makes you feel better to think that 38 guys are somehow better, have at it. Doesn't match my experience of 3 years teaching Tweets, or 8 years since but you're entitled to your opinion.

awesome....
 

And stink, G/D tooey. Sing one drink one, hoogh. Here's to chicks with small craniums...

T-Bone, how's that one go? "I pulled down her..."

Going to Australia in the fall to drink Australian Weed and act like a 17 year old with them. Also, we're going to do ILSs and steep turns with their weapons school. Should be fun.

No conspiracies and no need to get your panties in a wad. I never said 38 guys are better, I only said weak swimmers are sometimes pushed through because they won't be flying alone. Most all T-1 studs could fly 38's too. But there have been weak Tone studs that wouldn't have wings if it weren't for the split track.... As for washout 'rates' they as you know vary by the needs of the AF at any given time during a training cycle.

We spent a total of 10 minutes in a mission brief talking about ground ops, take-off, enroute, RTB and landing. Some call that a "mission"........ we called it "admin". ;)

If that's all you're doing, then everyone can do it in 10 mins. Leaves alot more time for a BX run to eat and do a shelf check before you have to step. If you're doing something between takeoff and landing, it takes a little longer. Of course, most other platforms do more than one thing everytime they fly so briefs can take a little longer....I imagine briefing 4v4 (actually launching half that number) every time you fly would make things go a little quicker. :)

I wear boxers thanks.

I stand by my post, it reflects 4+ years in AETC and 8 more flying heavies.

What did you use to derive your weak swimmer theory?

Not to mention Luke.

Haven't seen him in a few years but last I heard he was a D.O. Did okay where he ended up.

SUPT washout rates have a lot more to do with the objectives of the AETC leadership than anything relating to student performance.

SUPT leaders are measured by their pass rates in SUPT. This leads to things like students who are re-instated by CRBs 2 and 3 times after failed 89s. We had a kid go through IFF who had washed out of Vance so many times that he had to be re-instated at Columbus because the Wing CC felt he could no longer get a "fair shake" at Vance!!!

Yeah, no kidding. Washing out three times tends to make IPs, Squadron Sups, Check pilots, etc, think that you don't belong there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice
No conspiracies and no need to get your panties in a wad. I never said 38 guys are better, I only said weak swimmers are sometimes pushed through because they won't be flying alone. Most all T-1 studs could fly 38's too. But there have been weak Tone studs that wouldn't have wings if it weren't for the split track.... As for washout 'rates' they as you know vary by the needs of the AF at any given time during a training cycle.


I wear boxers thanks.

I stand by my post, it reflects 4+ years in AETC and 8 more flying heavies.

What did you use to derive your weak swimmer theory?







"Check tapes on,........check away..........turn in FIGHT's ON"

Not from me

Fox 3! No beef here. My opinions are based on 13 months on a UPT base and numerous current and former IP and/or FAIP bros. I don't have specific #'s but you'll never convince me that it isn't true. I don't think the split track was created for washout issues but think it has helped numbers in some cases even if it's 10%. Higher, lower? Doesn't matter.

Your time as a student, plus the opinions of your FAIP buddies over beers (who I'd bet my life are all T-38 guys), convince you a certain idea must be true, so therefore it is? You don't have numbers, but even if you had them you wouldn't change your mind? Dang, dude, some of you guys really do believe all the things you say about each other. Talk about a self-licking ice cream cone. Amazing.

Most of my FAIP friends were -38 track studs FAIP'd to the Tweet. So they understand both sides... We can agree to disagree. That's the best I can do for you right now.

With the lack of resources in the guard right now I'd tend to agree with you. I wish I'd been able to do a tour active first. You make it sound like I am talking about a lot of T-1 students, I am not.

Or you could skip college altogether and go warrant officer in the Army. I know a ton of commissioned guys who resign their commission as captains or majors to become warrants. Less pay, way better job. My stick buddy in flight school was 19. Just imagine yourself in a cockpit getting paid as an officer in 6-12 months from now, or imagine yourself sitting through 4 horrible years of studying and getting treated like a stupid cad-idiot. That said I'm still going to try to get into the ANG and get a fighter slot when my time is up. If only the Army had fighters...

Capt's and Majors? Heck, I know a Marine LtCol (Cobra pilot) who just resigned his commission to go be a warrant with the 160th at Fort Campbell. Talk about a pay cut. Some of you Army helo dudes are kicking in more teeth than anybody else.

Haha, sigtauenus, reminds me of this Army Maj I know, he originally was a marine corps pilot, got out with 17 years of service, back in the early 90's drawdown, then when the military ws asking for pilots he went into the Army, but they screwed up his paperwork and he went in as a CW2 for 3 years. He also got told off by a CW3, and a few weeks later his paperwork was fixed and put Maj on. Anyhow, while on a deployment, he found out that the Army accidentally retired him and he had still been flying missions while on retired status, and he had to go back CONUS and sort that out.

Same Maj also didn't know the rule about not crossing the redline at Air Force bases. He's always someone to give a funny story.

No got one of those before I started flying helicopters. And I am not a warrant...just thought I'd throw in my two cents and open up another option that not a lot of folks know about. But I fly with a lot of warrants who have 4 year degrees; some got it before some get it while they are still in. Some have more schooling than I.

Now ENJJPT is taking a look at anyone that is a so called "weak swimmer." If they feel that the stud will not make it through T-38's they are now being sent to T-44's. They have already sent two studs, last I knew. (American studs only)



As far as resigning to be a WO, would you lose your pay? I had a chief if my AMS class that said he would retain is highest pay (E-9) until his new pay grade surpassed his previous pay. If I recall correctly he said he would have to make O-3E before he made more than his E-9 pay. Also if you retire, don't you retire at your highest pay grade held?