Far as RTUs--different subject entirely I think. Nothing wrong with thread creep but RTU instructing is worlds away from UPT. In my world I wouldn't mind teaching our RTU--but for the fact that it's located in Altus OK, a place I'd be too happy to never see again.

Far as lack of experience in FAIPs--tough question, and one the AF bounces around on repeatedly. They've had FAIPs, gotten rid of them, brought them back, repeat. Kind of like everything else in AF come to think of it.

Drawbacks to FAIPs are clear, you have very inexperienced guys teaching.

On the other hand, you get guys who are young and hungry and whose minds aren't clouded with memories of flying other planes other places. They're statistically less likely to have families that will mind 12 hour days. And, any tribe needs Indians. If you don't have an Lt's, who does the Lt work/jobs? Sounds funny, but it's a real concern. If everyone is a Capt, now it's a fight for Flt CC, you got some dudes that can't get the resume they need, you're hurting careers.

Far as experience "in the fleet" goes. Hard to say, I'll just disagree I guess. I repeat something I wrote above, if it comes down to passing a checkride, students are invariably better off talking to guy who has lived and breathed AETC in this particular jet than the MWS guys. If you want to know what life is like in a particular plane, or what combat is like, or any of a million other UPT questions, of course you talk to the MWS guy.

I was a FAIP, so my opinion is skewed. I was also a flying 'ho, by the end of my second year I had more PIC time than vast majority of guys coming from MWS. I had more total time than quite a few actually. Of course, I had more experience flying a Tweet in bad weather than they did too.

So, what's the right answer, I don't know. I think UPT would be disastrous if it was nothing but FAIPs, but I think doing away with it would also be a mistake. In a flight room you have a wide range of experience for the students to soak up.

 

[QUOTE]Our FRS used to be totally separate but now we fall under the BIG training command (CNATRA) - they have come up with basically the "cradle to grave" concept. Btw - being a native Oklahoman I understand your sentiments about Altus.
Same thing with Naval aviation. The SERGRAD program has come and gone through the ages it seems. Usually based on just needs of the service and personell - not having anything to do with the validity of SERGRADS being good instructors or not.
I haven't been in our training squadrons for some time but at least in our FRSs there is a good mix of the chiefs and indians as you put it. With a bunch of seniority in a squadron even if you are a second tour LT amongst end of tour LTs or O-4s then there are still enough indians to do the work (think coffee mess officer)
I guess this hard argument comes down to which is better - if either is - especially if you are looking at follow on employment in the civilian world. Is an hour of AETC time as good as an hour of MWS time? Instructional time versus let's say international flying that AMC might do? Hard to say and there probably isn't even a good answer in the end.

In the end - I agree with most of the posters in this thread. Do your best - let the chips fall where they may and you will more than likely enjoy all of your different experiences. Like you Sputnik - I have enjoyed instructing very much and feel that it is even a niche that I would like to continue to explore.

USMCFLYR

 

"As for the living with folks after high school comment...ouch. Probably a good thing you didn't FAIP, definately a good thing that not everyone thinks the same way you do. Personally I don't think anyone goes off to UPT to satisfy a lifetime desire to stay and teach UPT, I know I didn't. At the same time, I always enjoyed teaching. I didn't have a 20 year plan like the thread starter, but I was willing to do it. In my case, it came with a guarenteed follow on, one that I wanted. That was enough for me."[/QUOTE]

I wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings with that comment. But based upon the originator's post and as to why he is going to volunteer for the FAIP gig it seems as though he is making his decisions not because he wants to teach, but because it's the easy answer. He has his AETC issued slide rule and calculator out constructing his 10yr plan. How many people on this forum have ever had their 2-4yr plan go according to their wishes? Let alone a 10 yr plan? I too enjoy teaching. I like being able instruct a "student" in the C-17 about how to run a crew in the TACC system. It goes way beyond just the stick and rudder skills needed to pass an AETC check ride. Actual AR vs flying a T-1 20-30ft in trail in much different. A FAIP has no reference with which to offer career advice since he doesn't know anything else. Somewhere in this Forum trail it was mentioned that MWS IP in AETC guys aren't as good as the AETC FAIPs at UPT. It not that we aren't as good. It's just that we don't get so wrapped up emotionally in the anal retention factor which is naturally fostered within AETC. We've been jerked around by halfwit careerists in Illinois enough to realize some things just don't matter. We have a great family, a car/house that's paid for, and travelled to lots of places civilians pay lots of money to go see. We get to serve our country in Operations not seen on CNN or only reported on as an afterthought. There's a sense of accomplishment that's more than just -- trying to determine where are we going to lunch today on the T-1 cross country. I would think that it would be better from a bigger perspective to go to an MWS first and then back to AETC. Especially if you're going to start a family 3-5 years after UPT graduation.

I'll be the first to admit that much of the UPT aviation skills are lost within the first 2 years of flying the C-17. The sheer amount of info provided by the HUD and MFDs allows one to become lax in basic aviation skill sets (descent rates, NDBs, circles, etc.) Based on your comments I'm assuming you are at least an IP by now. It's up to us to ensure that the stick and rudder skills are second nature and allow one to progress to the level of taking a crew around the world safely. That ability will be based upon your personality and ability to react to change at a moments notice. Those FAIPs that I've seen succeed the most in AMC are those who realize that flying the C-17 goes way beyond having good general knowledge and flying ability. It's about applying that knowledge on your own when there's no one in the tower to offer you advice.

I just wanted to set the record straight that I don't think FAIPs are weak or any worse that those of us who were never FAIPs. But, it is a different skill set being an instructor in AMC than AETC. Much of who you become in your next life after AETC (and the Air Force) will be driven by your personality.

Don't be a D--K.

 

Wow, this is a huge discussion! I certainly have my opinions and I'd be happy to share them in greater detail. However, for the time being, I'll leave you with this:

Option 1: do everything that your current boss thinks that you need to do in order to _______ (get promoted / get your #1 follow on choice / avoid UAVs / etc). You can follow his/her advice and you have a 50% chance of getting screwed because the rules always change.

Option 2: do everything that YOU want to do NOW, WHERE you want to do it. You can follow your heart and have a 50% chance of getting screwed because the rules always change. But you have a higher chance of finding happiness.

 

[QUOTE=USMCFLYR;458541]I've been at Charleston, Altus, Dover, and I spent a lot of time at McGuire. Hands down, ALTUS was the best assignment. Why? Because I flew a lot, got really good, had every single weekend off, and I was out there with an awesome group of people. Altus sucks as a student, but it's an incredible assignment as an IP.

- Meet a TON of reserve/guard contacts for potential follow on assignment
- Once an Altus IP, you become somewhat of a USAF asset, and if you decide to stay in the AF, it'll improve your odds of coming back to the C-17.
- Get a lot of very good flying that the airlines generally respect - lots of heavy jet glass time as the sole qualified guy.
- For the most part, get the follow on assignment of your choice.

 

This is the biggest FAIP drawback. An even bigger problem is when FAIPs start teaching to students things they've "heard" from MWS guys. When I was an IFF instructor, I could not believe some of the crap that T-38 FAIPs were teaching, all in the name of "this is how the fighter guys do it". Usually said technique was 3rd or 4th hand, and learned from another FAIP!

Also spot on.

 

If you're referencing something I wrote, let me just clarify that is not what I meant. Somewhere several pages back in response to someone writing in essence that FAIPs all suck, I pointed out that in my time in UPT the absolute worst IPs were MWS guys. I did NOT mean that all or even a significant portion of MWS guys were bad instructors, merely that if you looked at the worst instructors in the squadron, they were all guys their MWS's had never upgraded but instead flushed to white jets.

In other words, I'm not disagreeing with you, I just wanted to claify what I wrote earlier, which quite possibly has nothing to do with what you just wrote.

If you've been an Altus IP, my hat's off to you. I'm in awe of each and every guy who taught me AR there. If you're referencing being an IP in the jet at a standard base, sorry I just disagree with you there. There is an enormous difference (in my book) between what you do at McChord and what they do at Altus. Riddler I'm sure can throw in his own opinions on that (and I'd like to hear them) but I've never considered anything I've done as an IP in this jet to be anywhere near what guys at Altus do. Nor do I feel like I've been trained to, but that's a different subject. And I also never compare it to flying primary at UPT.

On the 10 year plan, I absolutely agree with you. It's good to have a plan but that one was a bit detailed. I'm pretty sure in 4 years or so we'll be seeing guys go from being FAIPs straight to UAVs.

The biggest point I agree with is your "don't be a d$%k" closing remark. Doesn't matter your background, if you don't follow that one you're going to have problems.

I walked out of ACIQ wondering which way was up. I could tell anyone anything they wanted to know about flying a Tweet in South Central Texas, and some great cross country advice to both coasts, but I knew **** all about flying cargo international. But I learned.

 

[quote=Riddler;458870]I'm glad you enjoyed it. I for one have never had a problem with the choice assignments going to Altus guys, I really think they've earned the right to go front of the line. As a former AETC guy I get the "it's far better as an IP than student" but it's just not somewhere I want to live. I actually vol'ed to go there (I was five months into deployment at the time) then changed my mind.

For me, two drawbacks
- Really didn't want to live there
- I really like operational flying.

I would have been just fine, and enjoyed all the things you talked about, but I in no way whatsoever regret the decision to not go. Nor, more importantly, does my wife.

Still, maybe I'll end up there next, who knows.

 

[quote=Sputnik;459059]Sputnik -

I'll take for granted that you were speaking to Riddler here and not me although the quote box makes it look like I said those things about Altus.
I might have lived in OK, but I haven't been to Altus more than a few times. There are too many Marines there though there are a few next door in Lawton learning how to pull the lanyard and mae big booms!

USMCFLYR

 

Consider it clarified. I know my squadron and others did do this. We were left with no other choices -- an FEB would have been the other alternative. Coincidentally with this discussion, it was a FAIP that we had to "return to sender". He just couldn't deal with the ever changing nature of the business.

It would seem we agree with most things, we just have different backgrounds. As for going to altus I was in the same boat. I truly considered going there for the family life, but couldn't bring myself to go back to oklahoma. 1 yr at Vance AFB was enough for me. My wife also understands now why I wouldn't want to go. A long time ago she thought it would be great because the majority of her family is in Dallas. But realized a few years later that that would be a bit too close.

Have fun flying out there and fly safe. I'm sure we'll all be at ETAR or ETAD in bravo backup in the near future.