Kasserine06

It is true that I have no depth perception, but it has been proven that stereo vision is not the only way we judge distance. Again, like I stated, I have never had any problem judging distance, playing sports, or even flying. And to prove it to my friends who thought that I needed depth perception to judge distance, I every time I parked or moved an airplane, I would judge the distance between each wing tip or between the tail and the hangar wall, and I did just as well as they did. It has been proven that stereo vision only aids in depth perception within 30 feet. Past 30 feet, light rays enter the eye nearly parallel, so both images are pretty much the same. Within 30 feet, I have never had a problem until I was specifically tested for depth perception.

USMCFLYR

I understand that - but you'll also be put into situations that you've never been in before and the consequences of faulty depth perception could be more hazardous than a dropped popped fly. I was disqualified 7 times for a medical and never gave up - so I understand the persistence that others are giving you for advice - but I also want you to understand that there may be limitations that are there for a reason.

USMCFLYR

Kasserine06

If someone were to tell a specific reason/situation where stereo vision and only stereo vision will be required to judge distance, then I will admit defeat. The reason why I still believe I have a chance is because the specialists I have seen for the Air Force keep telling me that it is impossible for someone without stereo vision to land a plane even though I can. They are trying to tell me I have certain limitations even though they have no idea how I perceive the world and they are not be aware that you can still judge distance fine by only using one eye. I would rather deal with the people who have a say in making the standards and not the people who blindly enforce them. The last Air Force doctor who examined me literally laughed saying it is impossible to control an aircraft without stereo vision. I respect her opinion, but she has no idea what my capabilities are.

The private doctor I am seeing also said that passing stereo vision tests does not mean that your brain uses stereo vision all the time. Your brain might only use it during specific tests. That is what she is trying to teach me, to mentally “turn on” my stereo vision. Many people who have to take the different tests and pass may not be using both eyes while they fly. That is where I stand now. I can pass a few tests when I try, but when I am not taking those tests, my brain reverts back to mono vision.

If the goal of this test is to determine if I have the ability to safely land a plane (what every AF doctor has told me), then this needs to be reevaluated. If it is for other reasons, I would like to know. It is true that there may be an important reason for this, but if I am able to hook a banner line 8 feet off the ground, it seems by depth perception is adequate enough.

USMCFLYR

OK - then it must be symantics here that is partly confusing. You need to quite saying that you DO NOT have any depth perception.
State instead that you can not pass ONE kind of depth perception test.
I personally can't pass the numbers test with the color vision - but I pass every other color test. I've also landed on an aircraft carrier at night using a system of colored lights - so I feel pretty safe about that. But if I were to say that I have NO COLOR VISION and CAN NOT pass any color vision test - then I would probably have no business doing such a thing.
Again - I don't know about just landing an airplane without color vision which it why I keep telling you that the type of flying that you are going to be doing in the military would be different than anything you have done in the civilian world to this point I'm willing to bet.
Don't get the idea that I am against you getting further tests and proving all those flight surgeons wrong. I've had my personal fill with flight surgeons just over the last three years (and almost a year of that med down for various reasons); but I'm also telling you that if you DON'T have adequate depth perception then I don't want you leading my formation to the tanker in bad weather while working the radar and listening to the two (or more comms) going on and then having to concentrate on making your two eyeballs work together while closing on another aircraft at a few hundred miles per hour at some point.
Best of luck Kasserine.

USMCFLYR

Winged Wheeler

K06:

I am not attempting to be pessimistic or to discourage your efforts on this. I salute your desire to serve and wish you nothing but luck,

Having said that, here is the bad news: It does not matter if you can land the plane blindfolded--if the AF says you have to pass test X, then test X you will pass or you do not fly for the AF. Forget about what the doctors say, pro or con. It does not matter what they think you can or can not do, and it does not matter what the purpose of the test is. The system exists to replace effort and allow techs to do the job of many doctors. Getting a passing grade on some acceptable depth perception test has to be done or you do not proceed.

Now, for the good news: a previous poster said that anything can be waived. That is largely true. Ask the AF people (nicely) what AFI (regulation) governs this issue. Ask them if there are changes out to this AFI, ask them if there are local or command supplements that apply to you. Get them to tell you chapter and verse. Read the exact words. Then go to the front of the document and find out who, or what office, is the waiver authority. That waiver authority is the one that can give you permission to move on.

It will be a lot like being your own lawyer. Did not mean to insult you by calling you a lawyer.

Now, for a little more bad news: since you are coming in from the outside, the AF has not yet invested a lot in your training. Institutionally, they can just as easily get someone who passes the tests and that will be the natural inclination. Someone must sign their name to the waiver--what is the incentive for them to help you? The AFI says you are out. If they use the waiver authority to let you in what do they get? Thanks from you is about it. If you fail somehow down the road, someone might ask why they waived the AFI for you--they have little incentive to help you.

So, it isn't impossible, but it is tough. Other possibilities:

Do other services have tests you can pass?
Would you accept a comission in the AF and apply to be a pilot later? You'd be an insider and more likely to get help.

Good luck to you.

WW

Kikuchiyo

K, I'm on your side, but... Sounds like you have a very significant exotropia (the misalignment of your eyes) with monofixation syndrome. The same condition I have, but much more severe. The MFS is where the brain ignores the non-dominant eye's signal. The exotropia is fixable with the right prism glasses, and you can retrain your brain to overcome your MFS while wearing the glasses. But you'll find that when you're stressed, you'll tend to fall back into the habits your body has learned over it's life and will start dropping out the signal again.

Interesting that you point out the limitation of DP to inside a range of 30 feet. You're correct. However, that's exactly how my deficiency was discovered. I had flown the 141 and C-12 and instructed in both the Tweet and T-1. But never had to do air refueling. When I got to the C-17, AR is a required qual, but I just couldn't do it. Had some problems during the day, overcame them, but couldn't do night AR without the glasses. The tanker is about 20 ft away, it's really big, moving in an unusual perspective, and isn't like anything you've ever experienced before. And if you mess it up, at best you divert for gas, at worst you hit the other plane. Add in night, in the clouds, and 18 hours since your last night's sleep, and that adds the stress that leads to loss of the DP, even with the glasses.

Now, you're thinking, okay, how about I come in and just don't fly AR. Not an option; you can't come in on a waiver like that. You need to be assignable to anything. Also, they only have so much training time. They're not going to want to bring you in if they think you'll need extra training time for a known issue. I'm just trying to explain the rationale for why it's so much harder to get a waiver to get in than it is to get one once you're thru.

I, too, applaud your desire to serve. But you may have to settle for not being an AF pilot. I'm not saying it's impossible to get the waiver, but with a 14 degree exotropia, I'm doubtful (my exotropia was a small fraction of a degree, and I was grounded even with that). As previous posters have said, you need to find the reg, and figure out what the limits are and who's responsible for granting the waiver. And either way, start coming up with a plan B. Good luck.

BDGERJMN

From the NAVY's waiver guide. Not surprisingly more restrictive than the USAF Waiver Guide a 747pg document. Bottom line, waivers not granted for USN/USMC but looks like they are for USAF Class I,II,III aviators

Caveat: The Navy may be more restrictive for shipboard operations and any SNA from day one of flight school is eligible for shipboard operations regardless.

12.4 DEFECTIVE DEPTH PERCEPTION
AEROMEDICAL CONCERNS: Although many visual cues regarding the relative positions of objects in space (depth perception) are monocular. The binocular visual reflex of stereopsis is an important indicator of normal visual acuity in each eye, with normal ocular alignment and normal binocular visual development. Defective stereopsis may make certain piloting duties such as formation flying and aerial refueling more difficult.
WAIVER: No waivers shall be recommended for any candidate or designated Class I duty involving actual control of aircraft. Class II and III personnel must meet standards for depth perception except when remarked as "not required" under types of aviation duty specified under MANMED Articles 15-87 through 15-99.
INFORMATION REQUIRED:

1. Valid tests of stereopsis include:
Armed Forces Vision Tester (AFVT)
Verhoeff Stereoptor
Stereoacuity Plates used with polarized viewers such as the Stereo Optical or Titmus Optical Stereo Fly or Randot. A randomized version of these tests may be used if the examiner deems it necessary.

2. Although the devices test stereopsis at optical infinity, intermediate or near distance-respectively, a pass of any one test meets the stereopsis standard. The tests must be administered and results recorded as specified in MANMED and elsewhere in the ARWG.

3. Recent loss of stereopsis in a designated Class I naval aviator is usually due to a change in refraction or onset of presbyopia, but may also be a sign of cataract, macular or optic nerve disease or new motility disturbance.

4. New failures to meet the stereopsis standard must be evaluated by an ophthalmologist including completion of the ocular motility worksheet as specified by the attached instructions found elsewhere in the ARWG.

TREATMENT: Correct any underlying refractive error or eye disease.
DISCUSSION: Defective stereopsis is typically innate and due to abnormal visual development prior to the age of 9. Causes of defective stereopsis include abnormal ocular muscle balance, amblyopia, anisometropia, microtropia, and monofixation syndrome.
ICD-9 CODES:
368.33 Defective Depth Perception

KC10 FATboy

Kass:

Just to poke you in the eye a little (sarcasm), you might want to reconsider being a pilot for the USAF. After reading your comments on the FFDO program, you might be surprised to know that US Air Force pilots and crewmembers are armed with a sidearm.

On a more serious note, Kikuchiyo made a very interesting point and observation. His issue was masked until he was subjected to a very demanding phase of flight. This is why you may not have exerienced any issues flying your Cessna.

I urge you to get a second opinion. I had an issue during UPT that almost ended my flying career had I not gotten a second opinion.

But you must be honest with yourself. If you have a known issue, could you live with yourself if you caused an accident?

I have a question for you. What type of depth perception test did you have to get your civilian license? I had the same circle test that the USAF gave me. Did you have problems on that?

-Fatty

blastoff

Lately, this hasn't been the case.

KC10 FATboy

I just did my physical last week and I agree, it isn't always a 2,3, or 4. I think they might have changed the test. I've heard this technique before but I don't think it is valid anymore.

What I do know is that the older I get, seeing the raised circle is getting harder and harder.