ADSC versus Date Of Sep
 

I know a few guys recently who were eligible for retirement but were still on an ADSC for the bonus and were denied. But, they were LtCols with INDEF Date of Separations.

I'm a passed-over O-4 with now an actual date for my DOS on the books thanks to my continuation election to 20, although my bonus still takes me one year longer, to 21 years of service.

I can see where the AF told the guys with INDEF dates that they had to stay in until the end of the ADSC (well, AFPC didn't have to but of course chose to in our undermanned airframe), and I assume the same will be done to me....although is there something about a DOS that takes precedence? Or is it a judgment call by a commander and the chain for that situation (as well as AFPC)?

I assume the least favorable answer but I ask in hopes that someone may face or has heard of a similar issue. I'd like to retire at 20 in a few years, not 21.

Check with the bonus office at AFPC on this. My information is that they do not have oversight on who is forced to retire or not. They will continue to pay you up to your Ret date and then soon after try to recoup the money. I am guessing that your DOS is your mandatory ret date? My understanding is that you will be stuck to this date.

I was also a passed-over O-4, and was forced to retire exactly at 20 years. We also had another guy in my unit who was in the same situation, passed over but with an ADSC showing beyond his 20 yr point. He thought that meant he would be allowed to stay past 20 to fulfill his ADSC, and was caught unawares when he got a RIP notifying him of his impending involuntary retirement.

The rules as written are that Majors can't serve past 20, even with an existing ADSC. But they are recalling retirees, so rumor has it that they're going to change the rules on mandatory retirement for O-4's to allow them to stay to 24 years. It'll all depend on how they word the change. Will it be completely voluntary to stay past 20? Will they make people stay to the end of their ADSC's, then it becomes voluntary to stay to 24? I'd expect the change to happen fairly soon, then you'll have a better answer.

thanks for the info. For me getting passed over may have been a blessing in diguise as I want to get out at 20. I can see it going to 24 for all (not just U-2 and helo pilots), but like the previous poster said it is unknown whether this would be compulsory or voluntary.

There should be an organization for passed over majors, and a corresponding union. "this weeks topic--how to educate commander that you really aren't interested in additional duties." Particularly as you see classmates now getting promoted and hiding out from deployments in staff jobs.

Remaining past 20 years as a Major
 

I had a conversation with a friend a few weeks ago who was told that if he weren't forced to retire on 1 Jun 09 as a passed over major he could have stayed until 24 years if his retirement date was 8 Jun 09 or later. He inquired as to why and was told that the mandatory 20yr date was going to change. All things being equal at AFPC, this may not have been entirely true or has changed since then, but if it does happen, could create more pilots in undermanned airframes. We are rehiring retirees and trying to fill cockpits/UAVs now with less than adequate numbers so I could see it happening as a stop gap measure.

It's already happened with certain airframes and job specialties, continuation board by board--I think recently helicopter pilots, U-2 pilot, and even catholic priests (interesting group) have been offered continuation to 24 (although you can still sign the dotted line for 20). I can see the 24 option spreading out to all airframes at this point.

Yes, the continuation rules are set for each board, and they've been expanding the pool recently. My 2nd passover happened in 2006, and continuation was to 20 for everyone. Back around the 99-2000 time frame they were offering continuation to 24 for all line Majors. We may be coming full circle again.

I had thought that my initial continuation offer (after 2nd non-promotion) was final. But last year I was offered continuation to 24 after my 4th passover because I had one of those select few AFSCs (11S, special ops). If what you say is true that they've expanded the 24 year offer to more AFSCs, then it's a good bet that they may offer it to all pilots soon...esp in light of the return to active duty offers and such.

A couple things to note: accepting continuation to 24 does not commit you to 24, it's not an ADSC - it just allows you to serve beyond 20. Second note: there is no requirement to accept the 24 year offer, you can decline continuation to 24 and stay with your original offer to 20.

Third note (or maybe this should have been first): BY LAW, a DOS established for non-promotion trumps any ADSCs. That's why Kikuchiyo's bud had to retire at 20 instead of finishing his ADSC. When this happens though, if you are on an ADSC for a bonus, and if you took the lump sum option, you will probably have to pay back some of that lump sum, prorated for the amount of ADSC you do not fulfill. I'm not completely sure on that though...since it's a mandatory DOS you might be ok.

When the next O-5 board results are released, and if they are offering you continuation to 24, they will send you a couple documents spelling out all of the options and ramifications. If there's no offer to 24, then your 20 year DOS is mandatory and you won't have to finish that ADSC to 21. I'm certain of that. The rest of it, like whether you have to finish the ADSC to 21 if they offer you 24, I'm not quite sure. I do remember that in the continuation documents, I could decline the offer to 24 and keep my DOS at the 20 year point.

I hope I helped a little bit, I realize I may have confused the issue.

Staying past 20 years....
 

could make you more eligible for 1 yr remotes. Since the return date from a 1 yr tour must be prior to our 7 month DOS, an extension would make you eligible for more remotes. Subtract 19 months from our DOS and that's the latest point they could tag you. Now you are eligible all the way to 20 years. Declining the 1 year remote (3-day opt) would leave you with no retirement. I guess if you like our current location you could volunteer for a remote with a guaranteed follow-on back to your current base leaving our family settled for about 7-8 years.

If your retirement date is set after 1 SEP you will be considered for continuation to 24 on the board happening next week. I was late to rate and took the 20 year, so I am now in a boat where I have to leave even if I don't want to.

If you took money up front, they will recoup it. Depending on how on the ball they are, it may show in your final paycheck. Although I am told it can take 4-5 months for the AF to notice. At that point, they will start by taking back 2/3 of your retirement check for as long as they need to.

You will get your last bonus check, but remember that they pay you for the year you are about to serve, so most of that will go back to them depending on dates and such.

Hope that helps (from a guy living the exact same story. Forced to retire 31 AUG, with 4 years left on ACP.).

thanks for the info. My Date of Sep (which I guess means retirement as well) is 2013. ADSC to 2014. I plan to get out at 20, and signed the paperwork for such. To me the 1 yr and a few months of freedom (and not to be sent overseas again or PCS'd) is worth it versus the bonus for that one year.

Are you saying that there is a new board that will offer those of us on a current 20 yr DOS a chance to continue to 24? Or will it be automatic? I imagine the former as paperwork has already been signed. Again, I'm speaking as one who prefers to get out at 20, not a day later.

24 is not automatic. IF they are offering it, then you'll get some detailed documents explaining all the ramifications. The choice is up to you to accept or decline the 24-year offer.

Continuation rules are set for each board....check the AFPC website about the announcements for this upcoming O-5 board, and there may be mention of what AFSCs will be offered the extra continuation. If you can't find it there, then at the very least you'll be told what your continuation options are when the results are out and you receive your "sorry we didn't promote you again" letter. If your AFSC is not being offered 24, then you'll probably just get the passover letter and nothing else. If your AFSC is eligible for continuation to 24, then you'll get the detailed documents mentioned above.

When I was offered continuation to 24, I had the option of declining that and keeping my existing 20-yr DOS - which is a mandatory separation (retirement) date.

Just for SA here, regarding the bonus and its associated ADSC: The assigned mandatory retirement date definitely overrides the bonus ADSC. The thing to note is that they WILL take the bonus back FROM YOUR MIL PAY prior to your retirement (prorated), if it's mathematically possible. Which means: bank your last bonus, and expect to live off of it, 'cuz once you start outprocessing and Finance sees it, they will recoup it--the prepaid bonus is now A DEBT to the government. In my own example, my DOS and bonus time remaining were mismatched by four months; my next-to-the last AD (O-4) check was $700, and my final AD check was $0. So, heads up.

I thought I posted this yesterday...

I looked up on the AFPC website for the continuation rules for the June 8 O-5 board. Here's the link: AFPC - Air Force Personnel Center (have to be on a .mil computer) On that page, there are .doc files posted with continuation plans for each upcoming board.

Here's an excerpt for Majors non-selected 2 or more times for O-5:

Each eligible major selected for continuation will be continued until such time as the officer qualifies for retirement under Section 8911, with the exception of rated (11XX, 12XX, and 13B) officers who will be offered continuation until they reach 24 years of Total Active Federal Commissioned Service (TAFCS).

So yes, pilots, navs, and ABMs will be offered continuation to 24. If you already have continuation to 20, you should be able to decline the 24 option and stay with your 20 yr DOS

Selective Retention
 

I read the same information above. This explains why my friend, who had a retirement date of 1 Jun, was told in March that if he could have stayed in until 8 Jun he could have stayed until 24 years if he desired. He wanted to stay until 24 years, but had to retire at 20 years and reapply after he retired.

I hope the powers that be don't mind me resurrecting this 3 year old thread because it just became relevant to me. I retired 31 May and was surprised to see a $17k debt to the AF in my final active duty pay. Here's why I was surprised:

I'm looking at my original, signed ACP Agreement. According to it these are the conditions that would result in recouping ACP, word for word:

I was a passed-over major. In 2008 I accepted selective continuation to 20 and noticed a 31 May 2012 DOS was established for me in vMPF. In 2010 I was offered continuation until 24. I pondered it long and hard, using every day of the 60-day time period to decide. One of the factors was that the responsible officer at MPF told me very clearly my 31 May 2012 date was still a mandatory retirement and there would be no penalty for declining the additional continuation.

Surprise, surprise, I was given incorrect information by a government employee and now I am out $17k. They are saying my retirement was voluntary because I declined continuation until 24 and they are entitled to recoup. I think I might have a chance to fight it but don't know how to start to be honest. Any jailhouse lawyers out there want to add their 2 cents to what kind of chance I have?

Very slim to very none-at-all.

Got written documentation of this? If not (as I suspect), you're screwed. Read the continuation paperwork you signed too. I doubt it even addresses ADSC issues, but I don't recall exactly.

You denied continuation, rule #6 applies.

I was also a passed over Major. I read and re-read the continuation to 24 I was offered back sometime in 07 or 08. In the end, I signed it as it didn't obligate me to stay until 24, only allowed me to stay until 24. I couldn't possibly see a problem there. I called AFPC as well, just to verify I was reading it correctly. I asked the local MPF as well (talked to the Chief in the office). I signed it and I just retired at 20y4m...I did not stay until 24.

My bonus coincided with my 20yr, so wasn't an issue for me. However, I have at least one friend who was glad of the 24 yr option so he wouldn't have to pay back his bonus. Seemed to us at the time that it didn't absolve you of your bonus obligations.

I will concede that yours may not have been worded as ours were.

d. Separation after declination for selective continuation
e. Voluntary retirement or separation prior to the completion of the ACP ADSC
f. Mandatory separation as directed by Title 10 U.S.C. statutory retirement requirements

I'm confused why you're surprised. Seems to me that whether you call it d, e, or f, they're entitled to recoup. ??

I'm the OP and appreciate your addition to the thread to be honest. You add another data point in the complex mismatch between bonus ADSC's (and up-front money) offered in the early 2000's and 20/24 options to DOS at continuation boards for passed-over O-4s.

Personally, I have just assumed that I will have to pay back whatever percentage I was "fronted" that falls into the last 1.6 years that I won't be serving. That's fine w/ me, i just want out at 20 now so it's worth it. That said, it isn't clear that the AF really has a 100 percent case for recouping just because they decided to offer "24". Why? Because on the last board, the one in which 150+ passed-over-Major's were shown the "door" instead of continuation, for the first time I was not offered the continuation to 24 (obviously). Every continuation board up until that point, I would get the usual, difficult to decipher series of options that had no applicability to me (other than 1 or 2) and I finally figured out the purpose wasnt that I was part of subsequent continuation board, but just being offered the option to 24.

In any case I am still assuming that I'll pay back the cash at this point, but I'd like to at least double check the calculus the AF uses on the final dollar amount.

With that, just curious as to how they calculated the 17K amount? How much time do you have between your date-of sep at 20 and your bonus ADSC?

Thanks.

It looks to me like either d) and/or f) would apply. Even without an opportunity to continue to 24, it looks like f) would trigger recoupment if an O-4 were to retire at 20 due to statutory limits, ie there's no way to game that system...the only way to keep the money is to keep serving. If you do not meet the service obligation then you don't get to keep the money. The statutory retirement clause seems harsh to me, but they were probably afraid of folks gaming the promotion system to non-select O-5, get forced retirement, and keep the outstanding bonus.

The one thing that was notable in it's absence is a clause about RIF's. Looks like if you got RIFed, you could keep the money.

You're probably right---even w/o the offer to 24 you probably wouldn't be able to keep it due to the wording.

It is kind of a BS move by the AF though, for someone legitimately not gaming the system. I know of no one who was trying not to make O-5---the payoff is minimal, other than avoiding exposure to a deployment or some other specific personal reason to get out.

I'll tell you why:
d. I didn't separate
e. I didn't voluntarily retire
f. I didn't separate

Does that clear things up? This is why there are court cases over this kind of stuff. The AF uses retirement and separation interchangeably except for when it doesn't. A lawyer might say clause e. "retirement or separation" means that retirement and separation are not the same thing. That would mean clauses pertaining to separation do not apply to a retirement unless they specifically say retirement.

The other reason I was surprised is I specifically asked how mandatory retirement would affect my ACP recoupment 2 years before my retirement date. At the time I was told none of those clauses applied to me and the government would not recoup its money. The fact that I was given what turned out to be an incorrect answer means I'm not the only one in the AF who didn't understand the wording of the ACP agreement--*the ACP office didn't understand it in 2010*.

I'm not really expecting to get anything back but I'm hoping to get in touch with the current ACP office on the off-chance they actually made a mistake. The worst that can happen is they'll say no and I'll go on living my life $17,000 poorer than I planned to be this month. The saving grace is that my "plan for unemployment fund" was large enough to absorb the debt and I started a decent-paying job 4 days after retirement.

I do appreciate the replies and the genuine interest. I'm dismayed the default attitude of the AF is (and forever shall be, no doubt) to interpret anything that can be interpreted in the way that has the most negative impact on the member, with no concession that another point of view might actually be possible.

I had 9 months (264 days to be exact) between my retirement and my ADSC date. I was assuming they took $25k (yearly payment) * 264/365 to get the amount but that comes out to $18k so I'm not sure why mine is a little less. The actual # is a bit over 17 but I don't have access to it right this second.

Honestly I'm not nearly as mad with them recouping legitimately as provided by the ACP agreement as I am about them completely misinterpreting it when I asked for confirmation. I probably would have made some different choices and been more prepared for the hit if they had given me the correct answer in 2010. I hope it's some benefit to you to know in advance it will be taken back. If I were you I would figure out what percentage of days you aren't serving and multiply that by how much per year you get. Or, you could read AFI 36-3004 and see if it makes sense to you. Just don't ask somebody. The government takes no responsibility for its employees not knowing how to do their job. We are all expected to be Title 10 USC experts.(/sarcasm in case you can't tell)

Well, I certainly feel your pain, as I noted in my 2009 post.
Hindsight being 20/20, the best move might have been to take the continuation and stay in 'til your bonus expired.
I would guess a lawsuit based a claim that you did not voluntarily retire would fail, since your retirement does look voluntary to me. Best wishes.