Instrument Approaches to a Carrier?
07-03-2009, 10:17 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
Bunk/XHooker -
How about this part then? TacAir pilots lack some basic VFR flying skills and VFR flying knowledge in a general sense. For instance - asking a RP to fly around El Centro using VFR; flying back home from the working area VFR, or if you REALLY want to stump them - ask them VFR cloud clearences
I was having a conversation with a long time and experienced instructor from San Diego the other day who has trained quite a few former/ex-military pilots. He stated that their instrument skills were usually very good (although not use to flying VOR, WAAS, GPS or ILS approaches), as was their SA and their ability to handle EPs. But he notices that their lack of understanding of, and flying in, the VFR system is usually evident. Personally - I like flying some VFR back to/from the R-2508 to/from El Centro and I'll even have the students use VHF freqs sometimes just so they can listen in on the rest of civilian aviation and maybe gain a better appreciation for what is happening out there in the big world outside of the local FCLP pattern and to/from the working areas.
USMCFLYR
How about this part then? TacAir pilots lack some basic VFR flying skills and VFR flying knowledge in a general sense. For instance - asking a RP to fly around El Centro using VFR; flying back home from the working area VFR, or if you REALLY want to stump them - ask them VFR cloud clearences
I was having a conversation with a long time and experienced instructor from San Diego the other day who has trained quite a few former/ex-military pilots. He stated that their instrument skills were usually very good (although not use to flying VOR, WAAS, GPS or ILS approaches), as was their SA and their ability to handle EPs. But he notices that their lack of understanding of, and flying in, the VFR system is usually evident. Personally - I like flying some VFR back to/from the R-2508 to/from El Centro and I'll even have the students use VHF freqs sometimes just so they can listen in on the rest of civilian aviation and maybe gain a better appreciation for what is happening out there in the big world outside of the local FCLP pattern and to/from the working areas.USMCFLYR
My perspective after 22 years in a Navy cockpit (desk moron since 2004 <g>)
The end of VFR skills for most FRS studs came in July 1999. Thats was the end of the TA-4. The T-45C turned all the studs into HUD cripples, they freaked out if the GINA (combined GPS/INS FMS/FMC setup) wasn't G/I. If it defaulted to INS only they wondered aloud if they should takeoff. <BFG> I would fly in the MOAs with TACAN only just to demonstrate how much MOA they lost by only 'drawing' the MOA on system. Often use pilotage to stay in area when wx allowed, basic skills every TA-4 stud could do in the ancient days. No T-45 product could do that after the glass took root. We quit training that way. I had hoped the Kingsville bubbas would keep the VFR ability alive. In any case, then the T-45 squadrons quit letting SNA' lead home after the TACFORM/Weps/ACM hops, we freaked over section T/O's, etc. Then in 3 plane, we quit letting an SNA play bandit. No wonder they can't lead VFR from 2508, we quit in TRACOM (alot of Hornet drivers had they idea that since they wouldn't do it in the FRS, why do it in TRACOM). Oh well, we quit evaluating and training alot of skill sets with the T-45 IMO. I used to win very beer bet with SNA's because they were in emergency mode without a HUD or GINA. I would have them turn it off, fly a rails PAR/ASR on stby. They were very rough. OTOH, over the boat, Naval Aviator's to this day are the best holding pattern flyers in the world. Can tank in the goo day or night and do their mission extraordinarily well. Instrument skills as good as anyone else given the same equipment in very short order.
07-08-2009, 06:37 AM
#32
On Reserve
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: F-15E IP
Posts: 23
Phlyer,
It's only 500/1.5 for about 6-9 months once they get to their ops squadron. After that, everyone is 300/1. OG/CC can waive to published mins.
The F-15E's final approach speed is approx 180 kts when we land with fuel reserves for a divert that is about 30-40 minutes flying time from our destination. At VFR landing gas it's about 170 kts.
It's only 500/1.5 for about 6-9 months once they get to their ops squadron. After that, everyone is 300/1. OG/CC can waive to published mins.
The F-15E's final approach speed is approx 180 kts when we land with fuel reserves for a divert that is about 30-40 minutes flying time from our destination. At VFR landing gas it's about 170 kts.
07-08-2009, 11:42 AM
#33
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 69
Interesting discussion here. Going back to the original post asking about flying approaches to the ship the only part left out was the the "CLARA" call followed by the "Paddles contact, keep it coming". I few almost blind approaches to the ship in driving rain or low vis, where your entire trust, approach, and life was in the LSO's hands. I was not a LSO, and had my beefs with a few, but for 20 years they kept me off the ramp despite some of my best efforts to the contrary. Thanks Paddles!
07-08-2009, 12:07 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Originally Posted by Hooverdog
Interesting discussion here. Going back to the original post asking about flying approaches to the ship the only part left out was the the "CLARA" call followed by the "Paddles contact, keep it coming". I few almost blind approaches to the ship in driving rain or low vis, where your entire trust, approach, and life was in the LSO's hands. I was not a LSO, and had my beefs with a few, but for 20 years they kept me off the ramp despite some of my best efforts to the contrary. Thanks Paddles!
Paddles saw alot I never did, but glad they were seeing it and helped me aboard during the rough wx day/nights. For thread integrity, reacting to the LSO 'paddles' required exceptional 'instrument scan' technique <g>
07-08-2009, 04:36 PM
#35
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 2
Some things you learn quickly...
- from Paddles "99 taxi lights on" = I won't be seeing the ship at 3/4 mile
- the night bolter to the night tank back to the one wire, also known as the over/under. You learn quickly how to land on the first pass at night in a hornet since about the only thing worse than a night trap is the night bolter, to the night tank, then do it all over again.
- as an LSO I taught you had best get to an "on/on" start at 3/4 mile or you are way behind the power curve with approach speed at 140kts and 125 closure on the boat.
- best call ever from one of my buddies when I was waving during a sandstorm in the gulf - after he got waved off and went over the island of the boat on the waveoff..."101 airborne, request mode 1" Yes the mode 1, ACLS to touchdown. A man needs to know his limitations!
- from Paddles "99 taxi lights on" = I won't be seeing the ship at 3/4 mile
- the night bolter to the night tank back to the one wire, also known as the over/under. You learn quickly how to land on the first pass at night in a hornet since about the only thing worse than a night trap is the night bolter, to the night tank, then do it all over again.
- as an LSO I taught you had best get to an "on/on" start at 3/4 mile or you are way behind the power curve with approach speed at 140kts and 125 closure on the boat.
- best call ever from one of my buddies when I was waving during a sandstorm in the gulf - after he got waved off and went over the island of the boat on the waveoff..."101 airborne, request mode 1" Yes the mode 1, ACLS to touchdown. A man needs to know his limitations!
07-08-2009, 06:28 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Various
Posts: 428
On the "approaches to a carrier" topic:
Once I was flying the KC-135 that was providing contact training for the fighters on the boat in the Persian Gulf. I think nearly every pilot on the boat got two hookups. Anyway, after the two hours of constant contacts we asked the boat for a PAR low approach for training. They said we could do it but we would need to knock it off at 10 DME. That didn't sound nearly as cool as doing a low approach to 400 feet, so we went home.
It was fun to spin around the boat all day though.
Once I was flying the KC-135 that was providing contact training for the fighters on the boat in the Persian Gulf. I think nearly every pilot on the boat got two hookups. Anyway, after the two hours of constant contacts we asked the boat for a PAR low approach for training. They said we could do it but we would need to knock it off at 10 DME. That didn't sound nearly as cool as doing a low approach to 400 feet, so we went home.
It was fun to spin around the boat all day though.
07-08-2009, 06:33 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 328
How 'bout this one.
During work-ups the Air Wing is evaluated on it's ability to tank a low state aircraft. If a bolter doesn't occur they will "force a bolter" by telling an aircraft to raise it's tailhook (and do a night touch and go).
It always seemed that they tagged me for that honor. Things would be looking good at 3 miles and CATCC would say "Hook UP 104, you are the tanker drill."
Ahhhhhhhh!!!
I felt like saying "Look guys, I only have ONE good pass in me at night. After that, we're all on borrowed time".
Cheers,
ImTumbleweed
"Afterburner is a great substitue for poor headowrk"
During work-ups the Air Wing is evaluated on it's ability to tank a low state aircraft. If a bolter doesn't occur they will "force a bolter" by telling an aircraft to raise it's tailhook (and do a night touch and go).
It always seemed that they tagged me for that honor. Things would be looking good at 3 miles and CATCC would say "Hook UP 104, you are the tanker drill."
Ahhhhhhhh!!!
I felt like saying "Look guys, I only have ONE good pass in me at night. After that, we're all on borrowed time".
Cheers,
ImTumbleweed
"Afterburner is a great substitue for poor headowrk"
07-08-2009, 08:31 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Retired Naval Aviator
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
Bunk/XHooker -
How about this part then? TacAir pilots lack some basic VFR flying skills and VFR flying knowledge in a general sense. For instance - asking a RP to fly around El Centro using VFR; flying back home from the working area VFR, or if you REALLY want to stump them - ask them VFR cloud clearences I was having a conversation with a long time and experienced instructor from San Diego the other day who has trained quite a few former/ex-military pilots. He stated that their instrument skills were usually very good (although not use to flying VOR, WAAS, GPS or ILS approaches), as was their SA and their ability to handle EPs. But he notices that their lack of understanding of, and flying in, the VFR system is usually evident. Personally - I like flying some VFR back to/from the R-2508 to/from El Centro and I'll even have the students use VHF freqs sometimes just so they can listen in on the rest of civilian aviation and maybe gain a better appreciation for what is happening out there in the big world outside of the local FCLP pattern and to/from the working areas.
USMCFLYR
How about this part then? TacAir pilots lack some basic VFR flying skills and VFR flying knowledge in a general sense. For instance - asking a RP to fly around El Centro using VFR; flying back home from the working area VFR, or if you REALLY want to stump them - ask them VFR cloud clearences
I was having a conversation with a long time and experienced instructor from San Diego the other day who has trained quite a few former/ex-military pilots. He stated that their instrument skills were usually very good (although not use to flying VOR, WAAS, GPS or ILS approaches), as was their SA and their ability to handle EPs. But he notices that their lack of understanding of, and flying in, the VFR system is usually evident. Personally - I like flying some VFR back to/from the R-2508 to/from El Centro and I'll even have the students use VHF freqs sometimes just so they can listen in on the rest of civilian aviation and maybe gain a better appreciation for what is happening out there in the big world outside of the local FCLP pattern and to/from the working areas.USMCFLYR
07-08-2009, 08:41 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Originally Posted by CAFB 04-12
On the "approaches to a carrier" topic:
Once I was flying the KC-135 that was providing contact training for the fighters on the boat in the Persian Gulf. I think nearly every pilot on the boat got two hookups. Anyway, after the two hours of constant contacts we asked the boat for a PAR low approach for training. They said we could do it but we would need to knock it off at 10 DME. That didn't sound nearly as cool as doing a low approach to 400 feet, so we went home.
It was fun to spin around the boat all day though.
Once I was flying the KC-135 that was providing contact training for the fighters on the boat in the Persian Gulf. I think nearly every pilot on the boat got two hookups. Anyway, after the two hours of constant contacts we asked the boat for a PAR low approach for training. They said we could do it but we would need to knock it off at 10 DME. That didn't sound nearly as cool as doing a low approach to 400 feet, so we went home.
It was fun to spin around the boat all day though.
They were likely trapping all them birds back at the farm. Once between cycles, they used to let you all inside the 10 mile arc for the low approaches.
Sorry if you ran into a spoilsport. I saw many USAF bubs do low approaches from Vultures row , etc. Makes great pics!
07-09-2009, 09:44 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 945
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
Mink -
Sorry I left the Prowler out of the tactical naval aircraft in my earlier post. I did not know that Prowlers had civilian capable ILS. did ALL Prowlers get this update (meaning inclusing Marine Prowlers)? Btw - for everyone's knowledge - there are a FEW USN/USMC Hornets that have/had civilian ILS - the Blues and some past or present Reserve squadrons if I remember correctly.
USMCFLYR
Sorry I left the Prowler out of the tactical naval aircraft in my earlier post. I did not know that Prowlers had civilian capable ILS. did ALL Prowlers get this update (meaning inclusing Marine Prowlers)? Btw - for everyone's knowledge - there are a FEW USN/USMC Hornets that have/had civilian ILS - the Blues and some past or present Reserve squadrons if I remember correctly.
USMCFLYR
I agree with the general lack of VFR awareness. I am now doing more VFR flying than I did in the Navy, and it is a different environment. Around Whidbey, we did almost ALL IFR flying, except for VR low level routes. Now trying to stay out of trouble around SFO and LAX Class B airspace while VFR is a whole other deal.
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