Thinking about the Air Force Reserves
 

Hello,
I am a 22-year-old grad student in aerospace engineering, working on my ph.d, which I hope to finish by the time I'm 26. I've got 230 TT, including PPL, instrument rating, and I'm working on my commercial.

Here's a thought I have had lately, and I'd like to hear your opinions:
After I finish my ph.d, take a year or two, join the Air Force Reserve and try to get a pilot position. (I think I will be fairly competitive). Then, go after a civilian career while hopefully doing Air Force Reserve stuff no more than 2 weekends a month and the occasional longer gig when I can get vacation time from work.

I plan to work in Atlanta for some years after I finish my ph.d and join the air force reserve, and there are two AFB's within driving range: Dobbins and Robbins.

Now time for the questions:
1. I'm ambitious. Will being in the Air Force Reserve stifle my civilian career?
2. After my initial training (I can set aside about 2 years for that), is a few weekends a month realistic for a day-to-day commitment?
3. For those of you in the Air Force Reserve, what has been the hardest part?
4. If my civilian job offers me a promotion to move out to CA or something, and there are AFB's within driving range there, how difficult is it to change squadrons?
5. For those of you in the Air Force Reserve, what is your ACTUAL commitment, both on a monthly and yearly basis?

OK, thanks for all the help,
-Will

Will, I'll try to answer the questions as well as I can. Some others on the board may have different views than I do.

1. Depends on your career. I can only answer as an airline pilot. So it has helped my career. Looking back being a trougher was probably the best part of my career so far.
2. A few weekends a month is not realistic. Initially they will want you around the squadron quite a bit while they get you up to speed. Then as your experience grows you can start spending less time keeping your currencies. I would say 5-6 days a month is what you can expect to spend working with the reserves, not counting exercises, deployments, and the like.
3. The most difficult part about being a reservist is the time spent away from family and friends.
4. Depends on the a/c you fly, and whether or not the squadrons in the area are hiring.
5. The commitment is much more than advertised by recruiters. Like I stated above at least five days a month on a quiet month. Then you'll have annual sims which can be another five days a year. An annual deployment which can range from 2 weeks to 90 days.

I'm not trying to be discouraging, but it is a large time commitment. I joined the reserves ten years ago, and I believe it has been one of my best decisions. I serve my country, and I do it with people that I call my friends. I'd say that's a time commitment with pretty good job satisfaction.

good luck
jdt30

That depends entirely on what your civilian career is. Airlines? Won't hurt one bit.

Corporate America? Won't kill you, but it will dampen your promotion opportunities some because they know you will be gone at possible inconvenient times.

Academia? Would probably not hurt you, since you could focus your annual training during the summer break.

Note that you never have to use vacation for reserve duty. You do as much reserves as you want/need to and legally they cannot hold it against you.

For a reserve flying job, you probably need at least 4+ days/month but they don't necessarily have to be all in a row. For a non-flying job 2 days might be OK.

It is usually initial training, life is much better after that. But deployments to the middle east might not be a load of fun either.

If there is an opening in a squadron that flies the airplane you are trained on, not too hard usually. But odds are you would have to travel some distance or get retrained on a new airplane (time consuming, and the unit may or may not be willing to pay for it).

Actual legal minimum for all federal branches is 2 days/month and two weeks (12 day) per year. But most military reserves (flying or otherwise) do more than that. If you don't drill enough you will not get promoted and could get asked to leave. Note that the military has an up-or-out promotion system...generally if you do not make O-4 (Major / Lieutenant Commander) you will not be allowed to stay long enough to earn the retirement.

Will,

From reading your post I get the impression that you may not fully understand the commitment that will be required of you to be an AF reserve pilot. Let's run down a plausible timeline that would meet the criteria you set forth.

Will is 26. Gets hired by a reserve unit in GA. Off the top of my head I think there may be C-130's, not sure but that's not really important. The selection process if pretty tough but since you are "competitive" you should have a good shot. However, any unit who hires a guy off the street is going to expect some serious up front time commitment.

Will goes to OTS for 12 weeks. Next he goes to UPT for 52 weeks. Following UPT he goes to his follow-on training for his aircraft specific indoc. This can last from 3 months to a year depending on what aircraft you will fly. Once Will shows up to his unit with wings on his chest 2+ years have passed since his PhD. Will is now 28+.

Next, your unit will want some payback on the investment they have made on you. I can't speak for all units but in the C-17 world new hires are expected to be on orders (read full time) for a majority of their first year or two. This allows the unit to train, equip and ready you for global operations in the hope that some day you'll be sitting in the left seat calling the shots.

At this point you are roughly 3 years from your start point in becoming an Air Force reserve pilot. In the meantime, you will not have been able to hold down a corporate job and the demands on your time from the Air Force will have been invasive. If all these thoughts have already been considered then I will say the guys above have done a good job of answering your questions and I have nothing to add.

Good luck in whatever path you choose!

Man, those recruiters will tell you anything, it seems like.

The recruiters on chat on the website had me convinced that in a year away from my civilian job I could be fully trained and active as a weekend reservist pilot [returning then to my civilian job], flying a few weekends a month and some other pseudo-optional activities during the summer.

The notion of having 3 years away from my civilian job isn't necessarily deal-breaking, but it's upsetting that the recruiters hardly agree with one another, much less with people who've actually been through the process...

Maybe 3 years is on the conservative side but when you consider the following:

OTS - 12 weeks
UPT - 52 weeks
MWS training - 12-26 weeks
SERE - 2 weeks
Unit mission qual training - 6-12 weeks

If you take the minimum amount of time above you are still looking at 1.5 years just to be considered a "weekend" reserve pilot. Guaranteed, there will be breaks in time between each one of these events, often measured in months and not weeks.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but recruiters will tell you anything in order to get their quotas met.

What is MWS? And SERE?

MWS is training on your specific aircraft type IIRC.

SERE is Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape. It's only two weeks but it seems much longer...probably the least pleasant part of the whole training process.

Will -

Take EP11's above advice to heart and think long and hard before etching any plans in stone. As a former Reserve baby C130 guy, based at Dobbins ARB, he is spot on with what will be expected of you. Shacked it...same deal at every base.

I got lucky and had the timing down - they needed to send a local-yocal fresh-fish to UPT, and I happened to be a Marietta boy and fit the bill (keep in mind I'd flown for ASA for 2.5 years and had 4000+hrs)...who knows how many apps they have on file now? -

Right place, right time.

Good luck to you and stay away from the airline business. PM me when you get enough posts if you'd like.

J

I am not an Air Force reserev Officer. i am an Army reserev Officer in Atlanta and I can tell you these guys are right on the money. Yes, Dobbins is a C-130 training base. Its home to the 94th Airlift Wing. Robbins is an active duty base. They have a big Air National guard unit there though.

Maybe you spoke to enlisted recruiters. Whenever you speak to recruiters, make sure theyare officer recrutiers. enlisted recruiters arent really trained on officer programs so they really cant discuss them with great knowledge. its not that they are trying to fool you. They just honestly dont know. MAke sure you talk to an officer recruiter first.

Even as an army non aviation officer, ispend at least 10 hours a week doing military stuff. Its not neccessarily all at once but cumulitively. I can just imagine what pilots have to go through.

I think you implied thathaving a PhD makes you a shoe in for selcetion.it doesnt. The Air Force doesnt need PhD's to fly airplanes. They need pilots to fly airplanes. So having a PhD is good but Idont think its going to set you that much apart fromsay a guy without a Phd but who has an ATP.

Good luck with whatever youdecide to do. ican tell you that I have enjoyed serving my countrypart time for 20 years. its given me balance.

If you plan on a career in aviation, the reserve can be a great help as you get PIC in bigger equipment faster (generally) in the Reserve. Not to mention all the great contacts you'll have in almost all the airlines.

My reserve unit requires 6-8 days a month but it's a fighter unit. Honestly I can barely keep up at 6 days a month and usually give more.

I'd say 3 years is the longest you'd have to spend essentially full time, but there's no way it would be less than 2.

6-8 days a month would be well worth it to fly fighters, in my opinion. And, while I'm a long way from making a decision, 3 years full-time service doesn't seem all that bad. It's not like I'll be making any less money than I am now as a grad student ($23K/year hurts, lol).

My end goal is not to get into the airlines.

If I have my way, one of two things will happen:
1. If the Air Force gig really works out great, I might try to go full time, and then apply to test pilot school, and if I'm really a rockstar there, astronaut training. (Hey, I can daydream, right?)

Alternately,

2. After I finish my degree, I'll take 2-3 years to go to OTS, UPT, and the works, and then afterwards get my civilian career going whilst putting in the necessary time with my squadron too. If I take a research fellowship-type position here at GA Tech, then I shouldn't have too much trouble making time for both. After my 10 years is up, I'll let the Air Force thing go, and really put 100% into my civilian career.

Also: Quasi-related question. I was told that 10 years reserve duty is the minimum for a Air Force Reserve pilot. Does the 10 years start as soon as I go full time (e.g. when I start OTS), or does the 10 year countdown begin after I finish UPT?

ARe you at GA Tech? I work at the World Congress center right up the road. i also have a friend that goes to Tech. He's in Army ROTC

When I signed 5 years ago it was 10 years from UPT Graduation, basically 12 years total.

Keep in mind, the reason the commitment is so long and people expect so much of you is that landing an AF Reserve pilot slot off the street is the Aviation equivalent of winning the lottery. Your training costs $1.1 Million per pilot, and you also get your Commercial pilot license, something that now costs close to $50,000-100,000 in the civilian world. For every pilot, there is on average 50 applicants after his slot.

The weekend stuff is bogus as it relates to pilots. In fact, unless you are on an out-of-town trip, you rarely fly a local training sortie on a weekend. Your weekend drill is usually for ground training, although you can "reschedule" and use those days to fly during the week.

Will,

Sounds like you have some great ambition, which is good. You may want to do some research but I'm not sure if Test Pilot School (TPS) is open to reservists. Here is the reg that may address that question: http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/share.../AFI99-107.pdf.

One last little tidbit before bed; Flying is a vice much like drinking, gambling and women of low morals. Once you have the taste it can be hard to just "let it go" as you say. In order to be respected and rise above the average mouth breather a good part of your life will be spent studying tech orders, systems, tactics, employment, mitigation etc... With all this time and effort comes addiction. Aviators like to fly, it's a chance to check out from the drudgery gravity provides. Also, most people dig flying into combat. Employing your aircraft to the fullest of its capability is what we all drool over, it's why we spend countless hours studying widgets and nit-noids. That opens up another whole debate as to why you're doing the reserves. Dig around and you'll find all the preachy posts about why to join the Air Force. Spot on, every one of them.

Best wishes!

Yeah, I'm at GA Tech.

If I thought I had a shot at test pilot school, I'd drop my civilian job in a heartbeat, haha.

I'm sure I'd enjoy doing air force full time, but if I can get a reservist position, it definitely seems like the best of both worlds....

Drinking, gambling, and women of low morals can all be taken care of with therapy or penicillin. Flying just pays enough to keep the vices.

Do they have to be in that order? :confused::p

USMCFLYR

Not sure about TPS, but I do know that Guard/Reservists can get into NASA's astronaut program. There was a Texas ANG F-16 guy that went on a shuttle mission several years ago.

OK.... so in my mind it all boils down to one question:

AF Reserve pilot + Civilian career in academia. Can It Be Done?

If I had ever listened to the nay-sayers who told me that it couldn't be done for various reasons - i wouldn't be where i am today.

Of course it CAN be done. The question is - do you want it badly enough?
Don't let anyone tell you it can't be done, go out there and find out for yourself! Best of luck in whatever path you chose.

USMCFLYR

Anything is possible. But it wil take a lot of hard work and sacrafices. Are you willing to make the neccessary sacrafices?

For NASA you need a certain number of hours in tactical jets (supersonic-capable maybe?). Reserve/Guard flying would count. However the vast majority of pilot astronauts are also military TPS grads too.

But post-shuttle it looks like there will be less emphasis on actually piloting skills, and more on diverse technical backgrounds. I think going forward the traditional mission specialist track will be the selection ticket...ie advanced degrees, relevant technical work experience, and all-around great guy/girl. Being a poop-hot fighter pilot will no longer be enough, you'll need the academic credentials too. They will probably still take some military diver types for EVA work.

Can it be done? Yes. Are you putting the cart way before the horse? Without a doubt.

I was having somewhat the same internal discussions as you are now about 6 years ago. I too was trying to figure out how this whole thing was going to work with a non-airline employment, and I too had long realized I was not interested in the airline "walmartish" rat race. I too was thinking about TPS and how it would be "natural" given my aero engineering background. Then life happened and I woke up.

A couple of things that struck me about your posts are the TPS thing and the fighter thing. We'll address that in a bit.

You can search for my posts and you'll see my dissertation on TFI, if you haven't become familiar with that term I suggest you research that topic. This isn't your dad's Guard/Reserves, this thing has disintegrated into AD Lite. To pursue this organization with the mindset of the early-mid 90s model of the Guard/Reserve flying club is really to do yourself grave diservice. Guard/Reserve commitments under TFI are strenuously unfriendly to civilian employment, 9-5 more so than airline but even junior airline gigs suffer.

As to your comment that 8 days would be worth it to fly a fighter, I'm afraid to tell you that's stereotypical, and in that respect you're just another dude wanting to fly a fighter for the Guard. Hell, I was in your shoes 6 years ago (overconfidence included). Rest easy the latter is just lack of information as opposed to an endemic character flaw, you can take my hindsight to the bank on that one. At any rate, part of the reason so many people are hating the TFI thing is because of the insistence of some numbered Air Forces (in this case I speak of the AFRC) to pursue a "this Viper is more important than a wife and kid" attitude towards schedules that conflict with civilian employment. That WORKS to a large degree in fighter units, among Traditional reservists that are airline at that mind you, and in par with what you instinctively blurted out in your post, but when that carrot is not there (non-fighter units and/or units located in places where competitive employment is skosh) guess what, people don't whistle while they work anymore. I'm sorry to stir up that pot, but when you push the local Herc unit to treat their people with contempt under the mantra of "well you get to fly this thing so thats more important than your off line QOL" people give you the finger and go work at Home Depot or look for a govt contracting job and fly on the weekends where/how it suits them. My point to you is this, do a gut check on the reasons you want to join the AFRES/Guard, and if the only reason you find that "opportunity cost" worth it is the shot at flying a viper, I'd say don't quit your day job. I did the fighter chase application shotgun a couple of moons ago, got interviews but never the job, and let me tell you it's a tough cookie to crack, just the way it is. But don't waste your or other people's time going to a unit just to gripe and b%tch you're not flying a Raptor and counting the days to get back to your academia pursuits, that just makes you dangerous as a flyer (distracted MQT guy) and not fun to be around with, plus it probably blacklists ya with the unit for a full time job (never say never).

As to TPS, I'm afraid to tell ya this isn't the golden days. You won't be doing dramatic edge of the envelope flight testing, most of it is report writing and data babysitting. You get to fly a metric ton of airframes in a short amount of time during training, sure, but then you go to an operational squadron (Active duty) for at least 3 years, and in the middle of nowhere, CA. Will it help you pump the C.V. for tenure? Sure. But you can also win the lottery and forego the long way about getting to the same place. Astronaut training? That's cool if you like majoring in Latin (read: the equivalent of applying to a Guard unit that's losing their flying mission by the time you get back). How do I know all this? 'Cause I've gotten recruited by test bubbas in my airframe to come to the dark side because of my aero engineering background and graduate degrees in the same and AC qual at the young rank of LT. I asked all these questions now from the other side of the fence (as a winged bubba) and these are the realities I discovered. I'd pass on that. Honestly, I would go active duty if TPS was such a desire of mine. But guess what, that probably won't mesh well with your academic pursuits.

Talking about academia. I actually can tell you from first-hand experience what happens with your scenario. I was offered a tenure track assistant professor job at a university 60 miles from my unit. That's the first thing that happens. They want you to live there, but guess what, moving to said college town and commuting to the unit would have meant automatically min running the unit and getting pinged by the squadron to make more time for the unit. Converesely, the academic job expected me to serve my country outside of the hours of 9-5 and outside student counseling hours. Yeah that was going to work out great. Then I was giving up something I truly have a passion for (serving my country in a flying capacity) for a what? a 42K job with a probationary period (tenure review) of 6 years. Eff that. I cna make that at the local taco bell and have more time to burn periods at the unit, and I get to save the commuting costs at that. Academia is a joke, and there's no more money in it than in the modern airline industry but I digress.

Alternatively, commuting from my unit to the college would have been a non-starter, at 120 miles a day round trip just so I can hop on a night sortie and fly for 4 hours. That would have gotten old real quick. These are the things people don't tell you about the idiosyncracies of working the AFRES with a 9-5 job. If you score the trifecta (guard/job/family in the same location) that's great, but it largely cannot be done. So again, gut check that one, because transferring units is not that nilly willy jiffy lube quicky easy as you may be predisposed into thinking. 8 days a month doesn't sound that great now does it? I've worked 25 days in row this month as a trougher/bum and I still made less than my AD counterpart, while my unit expects me to hold up the fort for king and country and because they know I'm unwilling to drive 120 miles a day for a job that pays less than bumming. Do you think they'd call that bluff if I lived in MSAs like Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Indy or the like? Of course not. TFI is a dirty dirty game, but it's the new reality, so gut check brother.

I sincerely wish you luck in your pursuits, but thorougly research these important details before you go foot in mouth before you hit the interview at the squadrons. Oh and my condolences on GaTech, I wasted 3 years of my productive life in that place. Fortunately I was lucky to realize a 3.8 from Alabama and 7 times more abundance of partying female genitalia felt better (oh so goood) to get to the same pilot jockey job than swimming up the river at the grade-deflating school for the blind boys of Georgia[tech]. ;) Purdue was also a mistake of mine, but I did get a free degree and a wife, so that was par for the course... Roll Tide. :D

P.S. I don't have anything against Viper bubbas, I just want to make the point that it has become a nasty habit of high leadership as of late to utilize the viper squadron model as a means to push the TFI agenda upon the very volunteers that make the AFRES what they have been, and likely the agenda that will kill it.

Runge, I would suggest that you make about 14 more posts somehow so you can gain your PM privileges at APC. I am a moderator but I cannot do it for you- the magic figure is 20 posts I believe. Many people prefer PMs when they give advice, and you may wish to hear from them.

It definitely seems like a complicated logistical problem. My girlfriend and I had a hard enough time finding a place where we could both get good jobs and have somewhere good to live. Now, throwing in an AFB where I can get posted into the equation, plus the eventuality that I'll really need to be there for more than 10 years, humph.

Well, at least I've got plenty of time to think about it. I do think that it would be worth it to me, if I can get a good posting and hopefully end up flying. And while I can daydream vipers all day long, truth be told I think it'd be an amazing and wholly worthwhile experience to do any type of military aviation, regardless of the aircraft.

After UPT, does the Air Force basically decide where a reservist pilot lives? E.g. right now I'm within driving distance of a few different AFB's that operate everything from C-130's to A-10's to F-16's. But, I guess I don't get to decide what plane I end up flying. What happens if they end up putting me in a plane that isn't based anywhere near where I live? I guess I have to move and try to get my civilian career going there? Either that or deal with a back-breaking commute...

How much say do you have in what aircraft you fly and where you get based out of? Very little? Or, say I'm in Atlanta right now, can I go to UPT and then wait around for a squadron opening within driving distance of Atlanta? Or are they going to say "go here do this" and it's up to me to make it work somehow?

Sorry... what is TFI?

P.S. What bases have UPT, and do I have any say in where I end up going for that?

They used to do it at Moody, right? Do they still?

Haha, yeah man. I think undergrad is like 72% guys right now. Fortunately I've already got a girlfriend and I brought her here with me. Otherwise I'd be going nuts.

I think it'll be worth it in some years to come away with a graduate degree from here, plus all the contacts I'll get to make in government and aerospace contractors...

TFI total force integration
 

The TFI directorate is a collection of 40-50 members from the three components of the Air Force: Active, Guard and Reserve. We work with major commands (including Air Force Reserve Command) and the Air National Guard to identify missions where integration of at least two of the three components will benefit to the Air Force mission and the American taxpayers. You may ask, what is the benefit of integration? In the face of reducing active duty personnel and acquiring new weapons systems to replace legacy ones, budget dollars are tight and must be carefully managed. Combine the fiscal issue with the experience the reserve component offers and the decision to integrate makes sense.

Source article

TFI appears to be an attempt to integrate the various groups into a more cohesive, cheaper, task-sharing whole.

OK.

Here's another question: Does an Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard job make it harder to get a civilian job? I've been told that there are laws to prevent employers from firing service people who have been deployed, but what about when it comes to getting hired?

Yes
 

I was active duty for 10 years and left for the reserves. I had an interview at Netjets. All questions stopped after I said I was in the Reserves. Now I have a job as a civilian contractor at my reserve base... go figure.

I had heard from quite a few peers who fly with NJA and are also in the Reserves that NJA was a very military friendly organization.

USMCFLYR

It's always about timing
 

When the economy is bad and you need 2 pilots with 10 in front of you equally qualified do you take the one that can get activated for 3 months? Or do you pick the one of the other 9 with no stings attached? I don't blame them. Had it been a year prior I don't think it would have mattered. It worked out for the best. I make more money and I'm home every night in my current job.

Disagree completely. I told them I flew in the Reserves, and the rest of the interview consisted of a few questions, followed by war stories. THEY personally mentioned that the NetJets job would go great with a reserve flying job. I got the job....

Heh, wow. That's quite a disparity of experiences.

How about people pursuing a civilian job outside of airlines? Anybody?

I would think intuitively that you'd be less desirable to the typical employer. All that ANG means to them is that you're going to be away from work a lot. But what if you work in an Aerospace or Engineering field? I can see how in some ways it would be beneficial for an employee to have actual flight experience, but I'm sure the employer would rather not have that flight experience take place during time that the employee might otherwise be getting **** done....

Glad it worked out for you
 

Maybe it's my interpretation, but I'm just saying you could have heard a pin drop when they found out and the interview ended rather abruptly. My guys weren't prior military either so who knows. Best of luck to you!

Coming from a guy who is also working towards earning a Guard slot, reality checks are certainly appreciated from you old heads, but why does reality always have to be so depressing! :mad: ;)

Sounds like a peach of a place if you take that kind of abuse from a complete stranger without so much as a whimper.

I thought you could only do that kind of stuff in Russia.

I got two degrees in aerospace engineering. I was given no special consideration just because I was an operator while perusing the engineering jobs. This is mostly due to being entry-level. Lockmart will hire you, but you won't get the job just because you're a flyer. At the upper echelons however, one's affiliations on the operator world will be the very implicit prerequisite to get that level of a contractor job in the first place. At the engineering "levels" world though, you're just another number cruncher with skosh availability, Lockmart will expect you to serve your country outside the hours of 9-5.

As for academia, like I posted before, they said they were "very Reserve friendly" but when I inquired about being given availability to perform weekly duty at the unit while not teaching class or during student counseling hours I was flatly told "h#ll naw, we need you here 5 days a week". Turns out my "part-time" job pays me more than their full time job, so I told them they could keep their "mil friendly" gig. So that was that.

Good luck