A-10
05-13-2010, 11:01 AM
#21
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Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,193
Originally Posted by AZFlyer
Question from a civvie: How is it decided what aircraft type will employ which weapon when there are multiple aircraft types capable of deploying it?
I find it interesting that only the Strike Eagles (or whoever else) would utilize a particular bomb, but not F-16's.
Also, forgive me if I misread some of the posts, but is this to say that the F-16 is lacking some sort of defensive capability the other types have?
I find it interesting that only the Strike Eagles (or whoever else) would utilize a particular bomb, but not F-16's.
Also, forgive me if I misread some of the posts, but is this to say that the F-16 is lacking some sort of defensive capability the other types have?
There are a lot of weapons the F-18C can employ that the F-18E/F can't because they just haven't spent the money yet for testing/eval/etc. That and because of those stupid canted pylons, thanks a lot Boeing.
05-13-2010, 11:04 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 284
Back when the AF was created, the assumption was that any large scale conventional war would be with the Soviets. That would quickly evolve into either a theater nuclear war or a all-out ICBM exchange. Thus, Pre Vietnam, SAC was the dominate culture of the USAF.
The A-1E was probably the best CAS aircraft ever built: Gobs of payload, 12 hr loiter time, etc. Totally kicked ass, but, alas it had a prop. The AF wanted jets. Fast, shiny, jets. (Still do.)
Intro the A-10. The A-10 was designed to kill Soviet tanks in Europe—kind of a sideline to the "core" USAF mission (Deterrence), but might slow them down until things eventually escalated into a nuclear exchange. Since things would always digress into nukes, and since A-10s were expensive to operate (read not fast or shiny) , and since the army was largely irrelevant…might as well get rid of the Hog. Replace it with shiny fast jet (F-16s) who could give lip-service to a CAS mission, that they’ll never really ever have to do…
Enter Desert Storm. Whoops. A-10 kicked ass. Turns out the army really isn’t irrelevant, the Soviets aren’t a huge threat anymore, every conflict won’t end up in a nuclear exchange, and the USAF is back to ultimately being a support organization for the grunts on the ground. Hmmm. Maybe we’ll keep ‘em around a while….
The A-1E was probably the best CAS aircraft ever built: Gobs of payload, 12 hr loiter time, etc. Totally kicked ass, but, alas it had a prop. The AF wanted jets. Fast, shiny, jets. (Still do.)
Intro the A-10. The A-10 was designed to kill Soviet tanks in Europe—kind of a sideline to the "core" USAF mission (Deterrence), but might slow them down until things eventually escalated into a nuclear exchange. Since things would always digress into nukes, and since A-10s were expensive to operate (read not fast or shiny) , and since the army was largely irrelevant…might as well get rid of the Hog. Replace it with shiny fast jet (F-16s) who could give lip-service to a CAS mission, that they’ll never really ever have to do…
Enter Desert Storm. Whoops. A-10 kicked ass. Turns out the army really isn’t irrelevant, the Soviets aren’t a huge threat anymore, every conflict won’t end up in a nuclear exchange, and the USAF is back to ultimately being a support organization for the grunts on the ground. Hmmm. Maybe we’ll keep ‘em around a while….
05-14-2010, 04:24 AM
#23
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Size Does Matter
Originally Posted by AZFlyer
Question from a civvie: How is it decided what aircraft type will employ which weapon when there are multiple aircraft types capable of deploying it?
I find it interesting that only the Strike Eagles (or whoever else) would utilize a particular bomb, but not F-16's.
Also, forgive me if I misread some of the posts, but is this to say that the F-16 is lacking some sort of defensive capability the other types have?
I find it interesting that only the Strike Eagles (or whoever else) would utilize a particular bomb, but not F-16's.
Also, forgive me if I misread some of the posts, but is this to say that the F-16 is lacking some sort of defensive capability the other types have?
2. Systems compatibility: During Desert Storm, only the F-15E could carry a laser-designator as a strap-on store. The F-111F and F-117 had them built-in. Later, that bolt-on capability was wired in to F-16s (I think just Block 40s; not sure about 50s).
3. It's not the defensive capability, it's the offensive.
4. Sometimes "which jet, which bomb" may also be decided by issues such as range and payload (ie, you can put the bomb on the plane, but can it carry enough fuel to get there and back?), accuracy (Probability of Kill, or Pk...the estimate of how effective your weapon will be), or survivability (we need two engines because it's a long distance and there is a sandstorm enroute that could trash an engine, or we want the single-engine jet because it has a smaller radar cross-section, and is less likely to be detected/hit).
05-14-2010, 11:18 AM
#24
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: B787. Left seat.
Posts: 270
A civie visitor here.
"The A-1E was probably the best CAS aircraft ever built: Gobs of payload, 12 hr loiter time, etc. Totally kicked ass, but, alas it had a prop. The AF wanted jets. Fast, shiny, jets. (Still do.)"
Imagine if the other contender had won the bid for the A10 program, you might be flying P51 Mustangs. No kidding, the rival for the A10 was Pipers' contender, the PA48 Enforcer which was a brand new P51 Mustang with turbo prop power. The sole example is at Wright Patterson.
"The A-1E was probably the best CAS aircraft ever built: Gobs of payload, 12 hr loiter time, etc. Totally kicked ass, but, alas it had a prop. The AF wanted jets. Fast, shiny, jets. (Still do.)"
Imagine if the other contender had won the bid for the A10 program, you might be flying P51 Mustangs. No kidding, the rival for the A10 was Pipers' contender, the PA48 Enforcer which was a brand new P51 Mustang with turbo prop power. The sole example is at Wright Patterson.
05-14-2010, 11:31 AM
#25
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by EYBusdriver
A civie visitor here.
"The A-1E was probably the best CAS aircraft ever built: Gobs of payload, 12 hr loiter time, etc. Totally kicked ass, but, alas it had a prop. The AF wanted jets. Fast, shiny, jets. (Still do.)"
Imagine if the other contender had won the bid for the A10 program, you might be flying P51 Mustangs. No kidding, the rival for the A10 was Pipers' contender, the PA48 Enforcer which was a brand new P51 Mustang with turbo prop power. The sole example is at Wright Patterson.
"The A-1E was probably the best CAS aircraft ever built: Gobs of payload, 12 hr loiter time, etc. Totally kicked ass, but, alas it had a prop. The AF wanted jets. Fast, shiny, jets. (Still do.)"
Imagine if the other contender had won the bid for the A10 program, you might be flying P51 Mustangs. No kidding, the rival for the A10 was Pipers' contender, the PA48 Enforcer which was a brand new P51 Mustang with turbo prop power. The sole example is at Wright Patterson.
Of the prototype aircraft produced, two of the four still exist. One of the PA-48s (N482PE) awaits restoration at Edwards Air Force Base. N481PE (pictured above) has been fully restored and resides in the "Prototype Hangar" at the National Museum of the United States Air Force at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base near Dayton, Ohio.
There was a thread a little while ago talking about the new COIN aircraft and some people mentioned The Enforcer.
USMCFLYR
05-14-2010, 11:45 AM
#26
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: B787. Left seat.
Posts: 270
Originally Posted by EYBusdriver
A civie visitor here.
"The A-1E was probably the best CAS aircraft ever built: Gobs of payload, 12 hr loiter time, etc. Totally kicked ass, but, alas it had a prop. The AF wanted jets. Fast, shiny, jets. (Still do.)"
Imagine if the other contender had won the bid for the A10 program, you might be flying P51 Mustangs. No kidding, the rival for the A10 was Pipers' contender, the PA48 Enforcer which was a brand new P51 Mustang with turbo prop power. The sole example is at Wright Patterson.
"The A-1E was probably the best CAS aircraft ever built: Gobs of payload, 12 hr loiter time, etc. Totally kicked ass, but, alas it had a prop. The AF wanted jets. Fast, shiny, jets. (Still do.)"
Imagine if the other contender had won the bid for the A10 program, you might be flying P51 Mustangs. No kidding, the rival for the A10 was Pipers' contender, the PA48 Enforcer which was a brand new P51 Mustang with turbo prop power. The sole example is at Wright Patterson.
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
Wikipedia says that there is one waiting for restoration at Edwards AFB.
Interesting aircraft for sure.
There was a thread a little while ago talking about the new COIN aircraft and some people mentioned The Enforcer.
USMCFLYR
Interesting aircraft for sure.
There was a thread a little while ago talking about the new COIN aircraft and some people mentioned The Enforcer.
USMCFLYR
05-14-2010, 12:19 PM
#27
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: T-38C SEFE
Posts: 79
Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer
1. Which airplane will use a particular weapon is often a matter or either system compatability, or pure physical size. An F-15E is almost double the gross weight of an F-16. Both can carry 500 and 1000 lb bombs, but I don't think (not positive) the F-16 can carry 2000-pounders. I think the special "Bunker-Buster" bombs were in the 4000 lb range..too heavy to carry under just one wing, and no ground clearance to put it under the centerline of an F-16.
2. Systems compatibility: During Desert Storm, only the F-15E could carry a laser-designator as a strap-on store. The F-111F and F-117 had them built-in. Later, that bolt-on capability was wired in to F-16s (I think just Block 40s; not sure about 50s).
3. It's not the defensive capability, it's the offensive.
4. Sometimes "which jet, which bomb" may also be decided by issues such as range and payload (ie, you can put the bomb on the plane, but can it carry enough fuel to get there and back?), accuracy (Probability of Kill, or Pk...the estimate of how effective your weapon will be), or survivability (we need two engines because it's a long distance and there is a sandstorm enroute that could trash an engine, or we want the single-engine jet because it has a smaller radar cross-section, and is less likely to be detected/hit).
2. Systems compatibility: During Desert Storm, only the F-15E could carry a laser-designator as a strap-on store. The F-111F and F-117 had them built-in. Later, that bolt-on capability was wired in to F-16s (I think just Block 40s; not sure about 50s).
3. It's not the defensive capability, it's the offensive.
4. Sometimes "which jet, which bomb" may also be decided by issues such as range and payload (ie, you can put the bomb on the plane, but can it carry enough fuel to get there and back?), accuracy (Probability of Kill, or Pk...the estimate of how effective your weapon will be), or survivability (we need two engines because it's a long distance and there is a sandstorm enroute that could trash an engine, or we want the single-engine jet because it has a smaller radar cross-section, and is less likely to be detected/hit).
05-14-2010, 06:36 PM
#28
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Midfield downwind
Posts: 1,919
Originally Posted by EYBusdriver
I stand corrected, thought the Edwards aircraft was one of the Cavalier conversions that Piper obtained.
The Piper PE-1 and PE-2 (both built in the early 70s, derived from P-51 airframes and both of them derived from Cavalier) competed in the Pave COIN program, which was a competition to find a low-cost COIN aircraft (and never yielded any purchase from the DoD).
PE-1 Enforcer
PE-2 Enforcer (dual control version)
The Piper PA-48s (of which two were built in the 1980s -- new build airframes, not modified P-51s) were the result of Piper and the former President of Cavalier lobbying Congress to force the USAF to test the aircraft as a "low cost" COIN-capable complement to the A-10 fleet.
One of them is at Wright-Patt (N481PE) and the other is at Edwards (N482PE)
Piper PA-48s
05-14-2010, 08:46 PM
#29
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: PA28 Flight Engineer
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer
Later, that bolt-on capability was wired in to F-16s (I think just Block 40s; not sure about 50s).
05-14-2010, 10:02 PM
#30
Careful w/that axe Eugene
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: HOTAS...and a SWA gear lever
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer
... During Desert Storm, only the F-15E could carry a laser-designator as a strap-on store. The F-111F and F-117 had them built-in. Later, that bolt-on capability was wired in to F-16s (I think just Block 40s; not sure about 50s)....
fiveninerzero is correct re: post-CCIP Block 40's and Block 50's - they're essentially the same jet now.
