PIC time for apps
 

Hi,
I wanted to see what guys are using for logging PIC time for the airlines. I have heard some guys use 80% of their primary time after their A/C upgrade date and other use 90%. I have tried to search but didn't come up with much. Any opinions are appreciated!

My best advice ... be conservative !!! Don't use other time. Repeat, DON'T USE OTHER TIME. Check the company's website for specific guidance, some do vary. They may allow you to use a conversion factor since the USAF only calculates time from wheels up to wheels down.

If you've kept your own log, use the real PIC/SIC numbers. Make sure your PIC + SIC - OTHER = TOTAL (on the application). DO NOT USE OTHER TIME AS PIC ... EVEN IF YOU WERE THE AC. Provide your log with a copy of your SARMs product and be able to explain how and why your numbers are what they are.

I didn't keep my own log. I used 95% of the PRI time as PIC after upgrade for the C-12 and 90% for the KC-10. The rest of that time became SIC. All the other time was removed. All evaluator and instructor time was counted as PIC. I included an easy to read excel spreadsheet explaining my calculations. Not ONE interviewer ever asked me about my flight time or how I calculated it.

Think back about your flights. If you're an 80% type of guy, use 80%. If you're a 90%, use 90%. Just use what you feel comfortable with. But don't use 100% of the time after upgrade.

Be conservative. Don't use other. You can't go wrong with this. Assuming you're a heavy USAF guy, you should have plenty of time so don't worry about it. NETWORK NETWORK NETWORK. Footstomp ... NETWORK.

Any questions?

Everyone I know includes Other time after AC upgrade. Someone is the PIC at all times, so if you're not then who is? Before upgrade, no one includes it, but I would after.

Would you include other time if the company states on their webpage not to, even if you were the AC?

When I was applying, most companies did not accept Other time, as was stated on their Career websites -- and they probably still don't. The Other time problem has been around since the history of the USAF. It is not new and trust me, the HR folks know all about other time. Think of it this way, will your future employer consider the time you were in the back snoozing, taking a deuce, or making a sandwhich, PIC time? If you think they will, include it. Otherwise, be conservative and don't.

Trust me ... if you meet the minimums in flying time, which any military pilot should, you're good. It is all about networking and letters of recommendations.

As KC said, read what they want CAREFULLY!

On about my third reading of the NWA app back in the day, I noted that Northwest wanted IP time split from PIC time. How it got totaled back in, I don't remember. But, I know of two fellow AETC guys that didn't see that and got tripped up in the interview and didn't get hired.

I don't know if Delta does that or will continue the NWA practice (assuming NWA continued to do that, as no one else did) but bottom line is

READ WHAT THEY WANT CAREFULLY!!

Ferd

What is the "other?" Are you talking about your aircraft commander time when you weren't the PAC (which I guess is the PIC for this purpose).

The Air Force does not use PIC and SIC designations when calculating flight time. Instead, it uses Primary (PRI) and Secondary (SEC) designations. Primary time is anytime you are occupying a duty position and you are manipulating the controls; the pilot flying. Secondary is the pilot monitoring.

If you are a crew member not occupying a duty position, and thus not logging PRI or SEC time, you then log "OTHER" time. Other time means that you aren't flying or monitoring the airplane. There is also instructor and evaluator time.

PRI + SEC + OTHER + INS + EVAL = TOTAL TIME

When you have multiple crew members on a flight, this causes a lot of angst for the Aircraft Commander during the paperwork. Some people were in the seats, some were not. Some were instructing, some were evaluating, maybe they were in the seats (PRI SEC), maybe not. Then figuring out instrument and night time gets worse.

No where on your official military transcripts does the USAF mention how much PIC time you have. But as ElGuapo stated earlier, most people count the total time after your Aircraft Commander upgrade as PIC. But the airlines know better because they know as an AC, you'll probably be flying with instructors, evaluators, or even other ACs who have been designated as the PIC for the given flight/trip.

Typical of the Air Force, they've managed to take something so simple, such as PIC/SIC, and screwed it all up.

PIC time equals who's a$$ is on the line for a mishap. Who signed the book for the plane. You can be a PIC and be sleeping in the back. Just make sure that you have accurate records to back up your time.

Hi!

Some foreign airlines will also not count Instructor time AT ALL. PIC/SIC/FE is all you can count for some of them. PIC only counts if alone in the plane (and NOT solo time), or if you are part of a crew.

cliff
LFW

Thanks for all the advice! Looks like I have been doing exactly what you guys have been spelling out. I may be a bit more conservative..I have just used 80% of my PRI time. Most guys I talked to have used 90% . Of course Other time has been totally thrown out. I'm going to work on printing out a nice product to show where my hours came etc. I don't have a log book..just planning on using SARM's product.

In the Air Force (Air Mobility Command), Command can be exchanged between qualified Aircraft Commanders in flight, regardless of who signed for the jet.

Have the product ready in case they ask for it. Just give them the one page of your Flying History report. In three interviews, I had zero questions about flight hours. However, as everyone surely agrees, be prepared to justify it without any stammering or hemming and hawing.

Good luck.
C17D

I can second C17Ds comments. I gave HR my official SARMs product (the Flying History Report), but had an easy-to-read excel spreadsheet handy in my briefcase. Not one HR person ever asked me for an explanation of my flying time.

Thanks for your guys advice! It's been very helpful! I have my explanation sheet ready to roll. Now on to the more important part..waiting to get a call.

How do you determine your Dual/Student time from UPT for airline apps? I had 281 student hours total according to SARMs, do I log all of that or just guess how much of that was T-6, T-1 and T-1 other time?

Navy guy here, no idea about USAF flight time definitions ("Other" time?). But be careful about student time. Most airlines won't allow you to count flight time as PIC time in an aircraft you have not been "checked out" in (for USN, it's a NATOPS check). So, as a student, even during solo flights, none of it (in most cases) counts as PIC time. I always thought the student solo things was odd - if I'm in the jet all by my lonesome and I'm not the PIC, who is...? But, had not had a NATOPS check in the jet so it did not count as PIC time in the eyes of the airline app Nazis.

Old info from my airline app filling out days in the late 90's. YMMV.

Maybe I had hear that from before - but I didn't count any of that SNA time as PIC either; but like you - if I signed for the plane and was the only one in the plane - what other time could it be? :confused:

My memory is going bad and/or it has just been too long in any case - but I didn't even remember that we didn't get NATOPS checks in those aircraft - just instrument checks.

USMCFLYR

When you graduated UPT, you should have received a synopsis of your student time; a one page document with totals. Look through your Flight Record in SARMs ... a copy may be there. Otherwise, ask your SARMs personnel if they can retrieve it. Mine showed T-34 and T-1 totals.

The Navy was awesome in that they make you keep a regular handwritten book log of your time. The USAF, not so much.

I counted my UPT time as just student time; no PIC or SIC. You could probably get away with the T-1 being counted as SIC time since the aircraft has a type rating. However, I did include student time into my totals for turbo-prop and multi-engine turbine.

I hope this helps. If you have any specific questions, don't hesitate to ask. Many of us have been in your shoes. You can also private message me.

Well, yes and no. We had (I have 4 of them on my shelf) written log books, but in most squadrons they were maintained by somebody called the Ops Yeoman, i.e., the Admin enlisted person that had no flying experience and was "loaned" to the Ops Department from the Admin Department to do paperwork chores. These folks did their best at filling out log books, but with no clue about PIC, SIC, actual instrument, etc., log books tended to get screwed up. I maintained my own after a while, and spent many hours prior to going into airline interviews cleaning up all the errors from years past.

If it's still done that way in USN squadrons, and you're a Naval Aviator looking to move on to the airline world at some point, you might want to get your log book and maintain it yourself.