USAF limited period rated officer recall prog
 

Folks --

Any of you reach retirement (active) eligibility thus far on your tour? And if so, are they granting relief for PCS ADSC in the event you request retirement prior to tour completion?

Thanks,
voodiloquist

I came back under the RRORP which is a little different, but with the way things are and the new CSAF message, I would think if you want out now, regardless of ADSC, they'll let you. Just my guess. Good luck.

FYI..I just spoke with recall ops on the possibility of the 1 year extension for the "Limited Rated Recall" and you can apply when within 1 year DOS. However, she didn't see very optimistic considering the force shaping. FWIW.

At least one recallee has been granted a one year reduction in his tour length. He ran it up thru his 2-star, and AFPC agreed and curtailed his DEROS and reset his DOS. All you can do is ask and make the case.

My contract ends Oct 2013... almost 3 years from now.
I'd be willing to bet that her crystal ball has no clue how Age 65, and the VSP/SERB will affect things by then.
What would I do if I were in Vegas? I'd put money down that says AFPC screws this up so bad they they beg folks to take the 1 year extension in 2013.

HuggyU2,
Amen to that! AFPC does not ever look at the outside influences on their pilot retention numbers. Assuming the economy stays on the recovery track and oil remains below $100/barrel, the combined effects of the upcoming mandatory Age 65 retirements, the new FAA flight time/duty time rule, an improving economy and 10 straight years of fighting two wars will have the AF scrambling to keep up with the mass exodus of pilots heading for a different lifestyle than what the AF has offered them over the last 10 years. I predict 35K/per year pilot bonus by 2013.

I talked to the lady at recall ops last week about submitting my one year extension letter, and she didn't sound that discouraging. She stated the first extension requests are just starting to flow in, and she expected the approval process to take about 2 months to complete. My hope is that they remain true to what they said which is that the one year extension is based on your commanders approval.

Huggy, you're totally right. I expect once again when I'm within a few months of my new retirement date, they'll realize how bad their manning is and offer more service. If I get the one year extension though, I think that will be it for me. I'm getting tired of the constant deployments that actually happen, and the others that are always dangling over my head.

Best of luck to everyone.

At the rated manning conference last week, I got to talk to the recall extension decision makers. Given the pressures from the current budget cutting and AF overmanning, they have to have good reason to approve recall extensions. Having a critical skill and being assigned to a critical skill position and actually doing the intended work is the #1 deciding factor. Critical skills include (but are not limited to) fighters, Spec Ops, EWOs, and any Nuclear experience. There may be others, I don't know for sure.

So, fighter pilot in a fighter pilot billet, actually doing fighter-related work, you'll almost certainly be approved.

Fighter pilot in an Exec billet, or doing other non-fighter work (I know of some that are working as Resource Adviser, Director of Staff, and in the CAG) will likely not be approved. Get your CC to move you to a fighter billet and duties to help make your case.

Unfortunately, mobility guys aren't critical given that mobility is overmanned. Unless you can show that you have a special and unique skill set, the going-in position is disapproval.

This applies to all RRORP (retiree) recallee, and to any LPRP member who is not invoking Sanctuary.

This does not apply to those ARC LPRP members invoking Sanctuary under the provisions of AFI 36-2131. Those members will be granted Sanctuary to the 20-year point, but then probably not beyond.

Way to jinx it.

On another note, the VSP shenanigans of late have been interesting to watch.

Kiku,

When my recall is up, I will need 2 yrs and 10 months to get to 20. If, BIG IF, I somehow get a one year extension which puts me over 18yrs, do you think the AF will honor sanctuary? How do you "invoke" sanctuary? Is there paperwork involved or would a one year extension be a 'de facto' 3 year extension to 20?

The AF has to honor Sanctuary. It's spelled out in AFI 36-2131 that you cannot be involuntarily discharged once you're past 18 (with certain obvious exceptions). Recommended reading for anyone affected.

Actually, there's no paperwork "required." However, you might want to take action to avoid administrative errors (unless you trust AFPC implicitly). Once you're past your 18 years, email the Recall office at AFPC "reminding" them that you've reached Sanctuary. They'll cut an amendment to your EAD orders to extend your DOS to 20 years TAFMS. Do NOT expect to be able to serve past 20. Due to the ongoing overmanning of the AF, it's really tough for them to justify extending your Sanctuary any further than required by reg.

Yep, it would. Which may induce them to deny the extension. Not to screw you personally, but because the AFI requires them to account for extensions and duty that would put someone into Sanctuary. It would unfortunately just be the appropriate, fiscally responsible thing to do. Sorry.

If, OTOH, you're in one of the critically manned career fields, they'll likely gladly extend you that 1 year, knowing that they'll really get to keep you for 3.

I predict the pilot bonus is gone sooner than that.

One of the provisions of the Rated Recall was "no 365's".
AFPC said that recalled folks would be eligible for deployments up to 179.

Now, there are recalled aviators that are being sent on 179's, plus 3 months of CONUS TDY for training.
And now, memos have come down extending them to 270's.
Add it up, and they will be gone about 1 year straight.

Granted, they have not been given a "365", but this completely violates the intent of the rule, which was to get these people back, and not immediately throw them into being 1-year away from home.... which was a factor in their decision to come back.
Kind of like giving someone back-to-back 179's to get around not giving them a 365.

Is anyone in this situation?
Kikuchiyo: any discussions in your area on this?

Well the good news is that you can't get short tour credit unless you're gone a year--so at least the 270 will screw them that way too

Short tour credit
 

I don't believe this is true anymore. If you are in a combat zone continuously for 183 days or so, you get short tour credit. I just returned Dec 17th after 183 days and was awarded short tour credit.

Lifter

Sorry, Huggy, but I have to disagree with you on one point. The reason the AF exempted us from iTDYs (Indeterminate TDY, the new name for 365s cause it might not end at only 365 days....) was primarily because of how members are selected for them.

AFPC/DPW (the organization formerly known as the AEF Center) uses a strict methodology for selecting members for iTDYs. Starting with the requirement and all members who are eligible, they filter out those with legal conflicts (DEROS, DOS, DAS, PCS RNTLD, etc). Then they sort the remaining eligibles based on the Number of Short Tours and latest Short Tour Return Date (STRD). They sort ties by number of AEF deployments, latest AEF return date, and then several other factors beyond my knowledge.

HAF/A1 knew that if they brought a bunch of retirees and ARC members back, we'd all go straight to the top of the iTDY list. There's guys who's last short tour was in the 1970s! They told me they knew that wasn't going to be fair to us, and coincidentally, it served as an incentive. The intent of the rule was to exempt us from a methodology that wasn't designed to account for our unusual circumstances as recallees.

Nothing limited us to deployments less than 179 days. My SOI says "I am a volunteer for TDY/Deployments; however, I am not eligible for a 365-day deployment, unless I specifically volunteer for a 365-day deployment." That was the name of the program at the time, and they're still adhering to the SOI and its intent by not selecting us for iTDYs. Training time prior to a deployment isn't part of the deployment per se, and your CEDs won't have a 365 ETL unless you volunteer for an iTDY.

For normal deployments, (not iTDYs) DPW tasks a MAJCOM, which then tasks a unit, and the unit CC picks who goes. Unless a) you're on a Joint or other very special controlled tour or b) you're on a MAJCOM staff. If b) applies to you, then DPW selects the individuals by name using the same methodology as they do for iTDYs. But, you can only go during your AEF bucket so you can't be back-to-backed. And in A1's defense, the AF changed the methodology for MAJCOM staff taskings after the recall was over and done with. (If you're on a Joint staff, you can't be deployed by the AF without approval from OSD, but you can be deployed by your Joint organization ISO their own needs and within their own rules.)

If you've been extended downrange (like the MC-12s) that sucks. A lot. There is a slim hope for the MC-12 guys that the move to Beale will improve training throughput and those extended will be released prior to the full 270. But even the latest batch that got tasked still has 179 in the ETL, not 270. Oh, and those recallees that weren't brought back on regular, full Aeronautical Orders can't go fly the MC-12 in the first place. I hadn't heard of other taskings getting extended to 270 other than the MC-12, could someone enlighten me on what others are for my SA, please?

If you're being back-to-backed by your unit, I'm sorry. That really does suck, and you have my sympathy for having a Commander who treats people like that.

AF has publicly announced an intent to change the Short Tour credit rules, but the implementation message and change to AFI 36-2110 have not been published.

Good background data. Thanks.
Although the A1 might have had their own vision/plan, it probably was not explained to the lower echelon. For example, I specifically asked AFPC:
- could they give me a 360 day TDY, and say it's less than a 365? Answer: no, we will not do that. 179's are the longest they give out.
- could the give me back-to-back 179's? Answer: no, that's not something we will do.

Huggy, doesn't your career field deploy enough that you shouldn't have to worry about getting no notice 179s? Or am I being naive?

Being an FTU IP, I don't have enough OCONUS deployment time to be "off the radar".

Any of you all heard that the idea of active flyers doing 179+ non-flying deployments going away. Thought is that by the time a flyer gets to within one month of the deployment he/she stops flying, then 6+ months deployed, followed by at least 1 if not 2 months non-flying once he/she gets back ...you're talking losing a flyer for 9+months. Non-qualified at that point and a pain in the back side to get back up to speed, not to mention the cost. If you haven't heard, spread it around!! I personnaly don't buy into the BS about needing continuity in most of those jobs at deployed locations. I know there are a few that require it, but most if not all of us could pick it up in a week of handoff and 120 days later pass it off to the next guy. Just my opinion. Would ease some of the pain.

I hit 20+ as a traditional reservist, not through the rated recall program so your mileage may vary.
After I hit 18 yrs, initially I could only get orders for 179 days and had to fill out a sanctuary waiver (as spelled out in the regs, but ever changing format and stipulations). Just before I hit 20 AD, they let you do a couple of 179 sanctuary waivers at a time.
I got to 20 and then continued to string sets of orders together which got me to 3 yrs TIG and I retired 1 Sep 10. The 3 yrs TIG was important for me, as I enlisted in Feb 1980 until the Final Pay system. Had I not gotten 3 yrs TIG, I would have been collecting O-4 retirement pay rather than O-5.
The magic number to reach is 7305 AD days on your PCARS; they count leap years in the 20 yr calculation. Also, after reaching 20, your IDTs and other non-AD points count toward retirement pay. In my case, I had ~21 1/2 yrs AD but am getting paid for 23 yrs 4 mos due to all of my drill points.

DO NOT invoke sanctuary unless you have to. The reason for this is once YOU invoke sanctuary, you will get to 20 but no further. If you decide you want to stay in past 20, you can't if you invoke sanctuary.
I would take any extension into sanctuary that I could and then wait and see what happens after that; if they want to end your orders and things don't look good, then I'd invoke sanctuary. But I wouldn't push that button unless I had to.

Andy to clarify your statement:

'The magic number to reach is 7305 AD days on your PCARS; they count leap years in the 20 yr calculation. Also, after reaching 20, your IDTs and other non-AD points count toward retirement pay. In my case, I had ~21 1/2 yrs AD but am getting paid for 23 yrs 4 mos due to all of my drill points.'

So once you hit your 20 years AD retirement with the 7305 points not twenty solid guard/reserve years, the MAN credits you with your IDTs and other non-AD points toward retirement?

I assume that you don't have a question on 7305, but for anyone who does, the math is 365x20 + 5 (5 leap years in 20 years) = 7305. Those must be in the AD column in your PCARS in order to get an AD retirement.
To answer your question, suppose you have 7670 AD points (21.0 AD years) and 547 IDTs/non-AD points. You would add the 547 pts (1.5 yrs) to the 21 and get a retirement based on 22.5 years of active duty service.
The caveat is that anything over 365/366(leap years) doesn't count toward retirement. Example: you're on orders for a full FY so you get 365 AD points + 20 participation pts. Unfortunately, the 20 participation pts don't count toward retirement because it is greater than 365.
There are a couple of pubs out there that explain this; I did a google search long ago to find out about that. In my case, I was in the Guard/Reserve 1999-2010 and although I worked several years with 365 AD points (so no participation credit), I had been a traditional Guardsman 1999-2003 and got a ton of AFTPs during that time. My inactive duty points ended up being worth almost 2 years of additional AD credit.
Hopefully that makes it a bit clearer; let me know if you need more granularity.

Recall extensions?
 

Just reviving this thread to see if any of you out there have had any luck extending for the additional year? I'm coming up on 1 year left and am trying to see if it is even worth thinking about. Also, for any of you that have done it, who did you talk to? Is somebody even manning the recall ops office now? Thanks for any info!
Floater

Trying
 

I submitted the paperwork to my SQ/CC two weeks ago, but have been on leave since, so I don´t know the status.

As others have written, the general feel from the recall-ops folks is that fighter guys in fighter billets are a shoe-in, others, not so much. (Yes, the office is manned, same folks as a year ago).

I´m trying the angle of "I´m an (old) fighter guy in a billet that requires a fighter or bomber background." If I get SQ/CC and/or WG/CC support, I might have a chance (They both know I am the high-sortie producer on-station).

Recall folks said you can always try again.

I sent my extension paperwork in on 13 Jul to AFPC, still no word.

Thanks guys. Just trying to get a feel for it. I'm a bomber guy in a nuke critical bomber billet so maybe that will help??? I guess we'll see...

We've already had a few guys in USAFE have their extensions approved. They're all fighter guys (pilots or WSOs) in fighter billets. Not to say others don't have a chance. Recall shop is still open with the same folks. Just so happens I'll be talking to them this week, so I'll see if there's any updates they can give me.

Thanks Kikuchiyo. Any words you can get from them would be greatly appreciated.

That have to honor sanctuary, right?
 

I assume this extension talk has to do with guys who are previous retirees or are not in sanctuary. My understanding is when you are within sanctuary in this LPRP program and will reach 20 yrs AD by the 4 year limit of the program (3 yrs extended to up to 4) then you're orders would be amended in due time. I need 6 months beyond my 3 yr hitch, and several others I know are in the same boat. I double-checked on this before coming back...to assure that I wouldn't be left high and dry.

The question is--when do you step forward and ask for the extension? I guess that since I have passed the 18 yr point, I could ask for it now...but I think it is wiser to simply wait until a few months before my orders end. No use highlighting myself for a bad deal.

179 short tour credit is no more
 

I received the short tour credit last December for 300 Overseas TDY days in 18 months. The new rules removed the 179 days overseas credit towards short tours. Other than 300 days in 18 months the only other way is 548 days in 3 years. I think the the effective date was either June or July of their year. I remember reading the message via an email sent to our squadron last spring.

C17 - I think you're right but am nowhere near sanctuary so I'm not an expert on that. But from the way I understand it, what you said is correct. Hopefully somebody with more knowledge will chime in. And you're also correct in that my question was about those that are not in sanctuary.

Turtle - yes, this was about non-sanctuary extensions. You can invoke sanctuary anytime once you've passed the 18-yr point by emailing the Recall Shop. They'll issue an amendment to your orders with a new DOS. I can't advise on how long you should wait in your situation, but waiting too long could have repercussions if you have to start outprocessing or PCS actions to return to your original unit.

floater - I wouldn't get your hopes up. My counterpart at AFGSC told me today that they had a bomber guy in a KNB get his extension denied. I will confirm that with the Recall Shop if possible.

Thanks for the update Kikuchiyo. Interesting they're denying guys in KNB slots..maybe the bomber staff billets and numbers have improved??

Thanks for the reassurance on sanctuary, Kikuchiyo...it's what we certainly expect from the LPRP.

I was thinking about asking for the amendment about 5 months out from the end of my 3 yr orders, which would put me 11 months from my 20 yr date. I had to break ties with my reserve unit to do this gig and don't intend to try and go back--just simply retire. Sound reasonable to you?

Turtle - yes, sounds reasonable. But I don't know at what point the personnel system will start taking actions to separate you IAW the original end date on your EAD orders. That would be my only concern. All it takes is an email to the Recall Shop to invoke sanctuary. Presumably they can undo anything that the system has initiated by your proposed 5-month point. I wouldn't wait that long personally, but your situation regarding "highlighting for bad deals" is different.

And to clarify something else from your post at the top of the page. You said "will reach 20 yrs AD by the 4 year limit of the program." The 4-yr point is not relevant to sanctuary, only to normal extension requests. If your original 3-yr LPRP orders took you to 18 years and 1 day, then sanctuary would be granted to 20, even though it adds another (almost) 2 years.

Hello all recallers. Long time lurker, first time poster. I want to thank everyone, especially Kikuchiyo, for all the great information over the last two years regarding the LPRP. Glad to see the thread restarted. I think there are a bunch of us out there approaching a year out with similiar questions, so again, thanks to all. So here's today's questions: If you declare sanctuary, do they just extend your DOS and keep you in the LPRP under the same rules (meaning no ITDY, PCS's, ...) or do you fall back into the Mother Air Force assignment world to have them send you where they seem fit? The LPRP office has told me that they would "probably" just keep you where you are. It's the "probably" that we've all seen before that has me concerned, so I was wondering if there are any concrete rules out there. Likewise, if you declare sanctuary, do you incur a commitment or can you just bow out when they give you a raw deal? If that's not enough for questions, here's one more, how would you declare sanctuary if you don't reach it until a short time before your current contract runs out. I have 3 months but others might be down to less. Thanks to all that might have any insight.

Once you enter sanctuary, even on the first day, you declare your right to extend until the 20-yr point. What they can do is send you wherever they want to, big blue owns you at that point (i.e. there is no obligation to honor any prior LPRP promises). What they will do depends on how long you have until 20 and what you are currently doing and where you currently are; that part takes a crystal ball. I don't think the USAF has a habit of purposefully slamming guys just because they made it to sanctuary.