Bye Bye Global Hawk
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 829
Politics and the UAV community, are you kidding??? Politics is scrapping every current fighter and bomber so we can buy 187 F-22s and have the hope of some F-35s. Politics is withholding funding to the F-15 in the '90s so the F-22 could look more critical. Politics is retiring the USAF heavy-lift helos before the V-22 had even entered OT&E to influence any considerations of cancelations.
There is certainly room for discussion on the merits of RPA, but I haven't seen it lately. Most people's discussions are guided by a lack of direct knowledge of what RPA means (Scan Eagle, Raven, MQ-1, MQ-9, RQ-4, etc are NOT all the same) and how they are used. They are also motivated by nothing more than having a person in the cockpit.
Fortunately, there are those who see that their allegiances go more to the destruction of the enemy than to the ability of any individual to fly an airplane. There are real fiscal constraints, whether we choose to ignore them or not. There are real ROE constraints that prevent the wholesale destruction seen in wars 60 years ago. There are real political constraints both within and outside of our nation that limit what we can do and where we can do it.
There is still a requirement for manned assets, but not for the reasons that are usually articulated. The current anti-RPA argument on this board has many parallels to the argument the calvary people put up in the 20's, 30's, and 40's. Had Gen LeMay been told he could have technology at the advanced state that it is now and that the technology could lead him to and even kill Hitler or any of his or Japan's leadership, he would have jumped on it even had it cost him 25% of his B-29 fleet. He, as all military people should be, was concerned more about killing the enemy than he was about anyone's ability to log flight hours.
I begrudge no one's desire to fly, I was one of those people; but the military is the military. Even when I got in, there were no guarantees of anything. If flying is ALL that one wants to do, there are other routes.
There is certainly room for discussion on the merits of RPA, but I haven't seen it lately. Most people's discussions are guided by a lack of direct knowledge of what RPA means (Scan Eagle, Raven, MQ-1, MQ-9, RQ-4, etc are NOT all the same) and how they are used. They are also motivated by nothing more than having a person in the cockpit.
Fortunately, there are those who see that their allegiances go more to the destruction of the enemy than to the ability of any individual to fly an airplane. There are real fiscal constraints, whether we choose to ignore them or not. There are real ROE constraints that prevent the wholesale destruction seen in wars 60 years ago. There are real political constraints both within and outside of our nation that limit what we can do and where we can do it.
There is still a requirement for manned assets, but not for the reasons that are usually articulated. The current anti-RPA argument on this board has many parallels to the argument the calvary people put up in the 20's, 30's, and 40's. Had Gen LeMay been told he could have technology at the advanced state that it is now and that the technology could lead him to and even kill Hitler or any of his or Japan's leadership, he would have jumped on it even had it cost him 25% of his B-29 fleet. He, as all military people should be, was concerned more about killing the enemy than he was about anyone's ability to log flight hours.
I begrudge no one's desire to fly, I was one of those people; but the military is the military. Even when I got in, there were no guarantees of anything. If flying is ALL that one wants to do, there are other routes.
#22
Politics and the UAV community, are you kidding??? Politics is scrapping every current fighter and bomber so we can buy 187 F-22s and have the hope of some F-35s. Politics is withholding funding to the F-15 in the '90s so the F-22 could look more critical. Politics is retiring the USAF heavy-lift helos before the V-22 had even entered OT&E to influence any considerations of cancelations.
Congressional UAV boosters collected nearly War Is Business | News and research about defense contractors and the arms trade.8 million
Border Lines: Cong. Reyes and the Drone Lobby
While I do not favor some of the views on this website, the article is worth some reading and consideration.
How the Drone Warfare Industry Took Over Our Congress | News & Politics | AlterNet
I don't think that anyone with recent experience in theater will deny the capability that RPA's bring to the fight. Unfortunately, we have to "rob Peter to pay Paul" in regards to fiscal issues. The cancellation of this particular project will allow the Air Force to free up funding for other important projects as well.
#24
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 829
Actually, no I am not kidding about politics in the UAV community. It's not like the other examples that you cited though. Regardless of personal opinions regarding RPA's and the role they play, it is quite apparent that the "Drone lobby" does have some serious pull in Congress as do other defense projects.....
What all of those articles fail to make clear is what the goals of the industry members of that organization are, I think military ops are not close to the top of the list. First off, I will say that membership in an organization like this is not necessarily all bad. As the target audience of much of the technology and the controller of the purse strings, it makes some sense that civilian leadership be informed of the capabilities. The same goes to ops in the national airspace system, as they control the FAA indirectly (through the budget and confirmation process), they should probably be aware of the state of that process. I actually think that if you were to ask industry what the most important thing congress could do for them was, they would point to NAS operations.
I don't think that anyone with recent experience in theater will deny the capability that RPA's bring to the fight. Unfortunately, we have to "rob Peter to pay Paul" in regards to fiscal issues. The cancellation of this particular project will allow the Air Force to free up funding for other important projects as well.
Our entire airlift fleet doesn't have to be C-17s when only a small percentage of our airlift requirement requires outsized cargo capability or austere field delivery - maybe if we reduced our C-17 buy by 25% and spent that money on lesser capable airlift aircraft we'd have 25%-35% more total airlift aircraft in the fleet. Look at how many hours we're putting on C-17s with aeromedical missions, channels, etc (all missions that don't require C-17 capabilities), aging the fleet prematurely, when we could more evenly distribute those hours across a larger fleet had we spent the money better.
The same goes for the F-22. 187 F-22s total for a global air superiority mission???? Only 25% or less of the possible scenarios require pure F-22 capes and we only really need enough F-22s to accomplish that mission. We'd be better off with 50 F-22s and 250 upgraded F-15s (assuming a 2:1 cost of F-15 upgrade to F-22 purchase - an over-estimation of the upgrade cost).
The same even applies to your helicopters. The only combat helos we have now are the UH-60s and the V-22, and we don't have very many of them. We lost MH-53s a long time ago due to the Peter and Paul concept. How many times has ACC given away and taken back the rescue role? All of that was over nothing more than ACC not wanting to divert dollars from fighters/bombers to helos.
Don't forget that we've also gotten rid of a portion of the B-1 fleet (and 2 Guard B-1 squadrons - the two with the highest MR rate at the time), F-117s, F-15s, ANG F-16s, etc. In addition to the the fact that our equipment has gotten better, it's gotten more expensive so now we have less of it. Many will readily admit that their are plenty of scenarios that we are less capable of handling today than we were 10 years ago.
We need a full-spectrum military. In particular, our USAF needs to be able to support the Army across their entire spectrum of operations. That means airlift of people and material, that means CAS as well as battlefield preparation and interdiction, that means counter-air, and that means full-spectrum ISR before/during/and after any dynamic events - from the most limited engagement all the way to full-scale conventional on conventional battle. And, to tie this to the thread, nowhere in there is a mandate to keep a man in the cockpit. It's all about the mission, and it's the job of military leadership to do what it takes to accomplish the mission (killing the enemy and keeping US forces safe), not pad someone's logbook. If it takes RPA to give everyone who needs it ISR, so be it. If it takes RPA to give everyone who needs it CAS, so be it. As I've said in another post, it isn't MQ-1 vs F-16 for the guy on the ground, it's MQ-1 or nothing because we don't have that many F-16s anymore. We didn't get rid of F-16s because we bought RPA; even the ANG F-16 squadrons that converted from F-16s to RPA - they were losing their airplanes regardless. Thankfully, we had RPA to replace the aircraft we lost.
#26
While those articles clearly articulate the associations with the RPA industry and Congress, we have yet to see those associations have much of an effect on military operations and military decisions to date.What all of those articles fail to make clear is what the goals of the industry members of that organization are, I think military ops are not close to the top of the list.
Dude, the fallacy that many have been operating under is that it hasn't ALWAYS been a rob Peter to pay Paul world. Just because the DoD budgets were allowed to spiral with no controls in place over the last few years doesn't mean that reality wouldn't set in at some point (or that reality shouldn't have been imposed earlier).
Our entire airlift fleet doesn't have to be C-17s when only a small percentage of our airlift requirement requires outsized cargo capability or austere field delivery - maybe if we reduced our C-17 buy by 25% and spent that money on lesser capable airlift aircraft we'd have 25%-35% more total airlift aircraft in the fleet. Look at how many hours we're putting on C-17s with aeromedical missions, channels, etc (all missions that don't require C-17 capabilities), aging the fleet prematurely, when we could more evenly distribute those hours across a larger fleet had we spent the money better.
The Senators
The same goes for the F-22. 187 F-22s total for a global air superiority mission???? Only 25% or less of the possible scenarios require pure F-22 capes and we only really need enough F-22s to accomplish that mission. We'd be better off with 50 F-22s and 250 upgraded F-15s (assuming a 2:1 cost of F-15 upgrade to F-22 purchase - an over-estimation of the upgrade cost).
When Gates stared down the F-22 lobbyists - CSMonitor.com
We need a full-spectrum military. In particular, our USAF needs to be able to support the Army across their entire spectrum of operations... And, to tie this to the thread, nowhere in there is a mandate to keep a man in the cockpit. It's all about the mission, and it's the job of military leadership to do what it takes to accomplish the mission (killing the enemy and keeping US forces safe), not pad someone's logbook. If it takes RPA to give everyone who needs it ISR, so be it. If it takes RPA to give everyone who needs it CAS, so be it. As I've said in another post, it isn't MQ-1 vs F-16 for the guy on the ground, it's MQ-1 or nothing because we don't have that many F-16s anymore. We didn't get rid of F-16s because we bought RPA; even the ANG F-16 squadrons that converted from F-16s to RPA - they were losing their airplanes regardless. Thankfully, we had RPA to replace the aircraft we lost.
#27
Global Hawk getting the boot
Well, the writing has been on the wall for awhile now. Good news for the U-2 bubbas? At least they'll be gainfully employed for a LONG time now
Well, the writing has been on the wall for awhile now. Good news for the U-2 bubbas? At least they'll be gainfully employed for a LONG time now
#28
In my day it was a high protein low residual diet and no stimulant drinks 24 hours before flying in a pressure suit. You don't eat chile and drink coffee the night before.
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,165
For those heralding UAVs as the future, there were discussions in the intel community quite a while ago about their vulnerabilities. I don't see a future in UAVs due to those vulnerabilities.
Interesting article: Iran's Alleged Drone Hack: Tough, but Possible | Danger Room | Wired.com
I doubt that the Iranians did this independently; they almost certainly had help from a more cyber-savvy country.
Interesting article: Iran's Alleged Drone Hack: Tough, but Possible | Danger Room | Wired.com
I doubt that the Iranians did this independently; they almost certainly had help from a more cyber-savvy country.
#30
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Posts: 3,543
For those heralding UAVs as the future, there were discussions in the intel community quite a while ago about their vulnerabilities. I don't see a future in UAVs due to those vulnerabilities.
Interesting article: Iran's Alleged Drone Hack: Tough, but Possible | Danger Room | Wired.com
I doubt that the Iranians did this independently; they almost certainly had help from a more cyber-savvy country.
Interesting article: Iran's Alleged Drone Hack: Tough, but Possible | Danger Room | Wired.com
I doubt that the Iranians did this independently; they almost certainly had help from a more cyber-savvy country.
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