RedeyeAV8r

At least the pilots are ok!

ERJF15

If a af jet crashes, the first thing to get locked down are the forms and then the Crew Chief. If it was a MX error and the Crew Chief was at fault, that individual goes to jail. If it kills the operator, negligent homicide. Crew Dawgs job is a b!@ch.

USMCFLYR

Have you seen incidents like this in the USAF?

Since most mishaps have some factor of human error whether it be the common 'pilot error' or maintenance factor, I would expect to see more than a few courts cases and at least through my years of service and involvement with safety in Naval Aviation I never once saw these types of charges brought against a pilot (remember the mishap in San Diego that killed 4 of the Korean family), and this particular mishap had some maintenance culpability too.

Recently the USCG tried to bring charges against a helo co-pilot and the charges were eventually dropped.

USMCFLYR

ERJF15

Yes sir, I have. One mishap in Spangdalem, a mx crew had taken over a job to reinstall the mixer assembly on the F-15. The mixer would take 1ea lateral and longitudinal input and turn it into 6 outputs. It was RARELY an area that we worked. And at the time, the mixer assm was painted 1 color, zinc blue green. Lateral rods are the same color, but long rods are white (I could have that backwards) and the mixer was one color.

Long story short, the flight controls got crossed. They missed it on their ops check. The pilot missed it on his flight control check. The crew chief launching the jet missed it. The pilot missed the cross control again at EOR.

He was number 2 in a 2 ship t/o.

Rotate, started applying lateral inputs to the stick and the jet would roll opposite. The pilot would apply the input to stop the roll, but made it worse because of the cross control. The jet ended up upside down. He was alive when first responders arrived with a portion of his head gone.

2 Crew Chief's charged with negligent homicide. One committed suicide. Charges finally dropped. This was right around the time of the blackhawk shoot down in Iraq.

ERJF15

I had a buddy lose a jet after a horizontal stab actuator slid out of its cylinder. He had installed the actuator, but the defect was at the depot level. They hammered him before the investigation started.

ERJF15

We had another jet to not rotate because the nose strut wasn't serviced properly. At 200kts, the pilot aborted the t/o. Saved the jet, but both brakes burned. They had every right to punch out. That crew chief lost some stripes.

USMCFLYR

Ah yes...the Blackhawk shootdown.
Remember the ONLY person they went after in that debacle?
Punitive measures taken that result in CRIMINAL charges for *mistakes/errors* made in the performance of duties is a slippery slope and one that I'm glad I did not see in my career then. The Prowler mishap in Italy probably being one of the biggest examples. The NSC didn't even investigate that mishap due the 'Concept of Privilege' coming under fire IIRC.

USMCFLYR

ERJF15

T/SGT THOMAS MUELLER

MUELLER v. U.S. DEPT. OF AIR FORCE - September 16, 1999.

Blackhawk


Court-Martial Nears in Case of Helicopters Shot Down - NYTimes.com

Mink

The above doesn't do much toward establishing a "just culture" - something that is generally considered the foundation of an effective safety program.

As USMC said, in the Navy the mishap investigation and the JAG investigation (the legal guys) are two very different things, and one must be careful not to "cross the streams". One attempts to find the cause of the mishap and implement steps toward prevention of future occurrence. The other, unfortunately, tries to affix individual blame and defend the service itself from any wrongdoing. The safety investigators should be viewed as the "white hat" guys. The JAG investigation...? Well, get yourself a good lawyer.

To the guy on the receiving end of either of these investigations, it's probably hard to tell the difference.

ERJF15

Oh I 100% agree. It's just that it's understood that you are gonna get hammered if your jet was involved in an accident. It was a guilty till proven innocent thing. As a matter of fact, the SP's would come and get you to take you to get drug tested and one of your commanders would start asking questions.

Slippery slope indeed.