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It can't be that tough, I've done it at 90 degrees of bank and even inverted in the weather...

Oh...well...I meant I THOUGHT I was in 90 degrees of bank. ;) The ADI must have been broke, because every cell in my body said that dumbass tanker pilot wanted to do the entire AR in a knife edge pass. No idea why he did it that way, but the AR wasn't the toughest part. The hard part was going BACK to the observation position on the wing flying the knife edge for the next 20 minutes.

These days when the flying gets tough I just go back to the galley and get a fresh cup of coffee. Sometimes getting old ain't all bad. :D I do not miss night IMC tanker ops.

Nothing like being on the wing and realize you can't see the engine pod. Are you f'ing kidding me? We're going lost wingman from the tanker!?!?.

Guy on the boom must have had extreme vertigo.

Everyone hung in there but it wasn't fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albief15 (Post 1282572)

It can't be that tough, I've done it at 90 degrees of bank and even inverted in the weather...

Finding the clouds is part of the KC-135 TTPs, which consist of;

1.) If there is a cloud in the sky...fly through it!

2.) Once the fighters are setting up their rejoining...turn into them!

These are found in the attachments. The main body of their TTPs consist of finding the highest per diem/ best party spots throughout the world, and above all else...get their tail number.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1281807)

If it was so easy, they should have been able to teach the procedures in a classroom, and go practice it in flight on the first sortie.

I guess this depends on what you're flying. This is exactly what my airframe does. Granted, my aircraft is much more responsive. I got two day and one night AAR in training (almost everyone graduates with a note of the many unaccomplished tasks for AAR). <5 before I was CMR.

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I do know that in some airframes, copilots are not allowed to close beyond pre-contact without an Instructor who is specifically certified to instruct air refueling.

This is valid, there is a reason they were sent to an aircraft requiring two pilots...

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But whether you did it a little and struggled with it, or did it a lot and were very proficient -- it was hard, and dangerous.

Maybe in your airframe, but I would not consider it hard at all. Dangerous? Having aircraft that close together can be considering dangerous I guess. It's briefed as admin, and usually consists of tanker ops standard...questions?

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We still do. It's because it's considered a critical phase of flight by the Life support reg. Like landings, high level bomb runs with 30 degrees of bank, and Takeoff. Very dangerous stuff.

In all fairness, I think i've read that, the takeoff and land phase of flight are the most dangerous. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1281807)

If it was so easy, they should have been able to teach the procedures in a classroom, and go practice it in flight on the first sortie.

This is how it is done in the F-15E FTU.

It is actually just an "also..." during a syllabus sortie in which something else is the primary mission. That first AAR is just something you do on the way to or from the real learning point on that day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacker15e (Post 1283884)

Hacker,

Is it designed that way or just implemented that way by the FTU...for instance in the F/A-18 syllabus day/night IFR are separate sorties and solely dedicated to tanking. I was curious if they are separate events on paper for y'all and you just combine them in flight or if a particular flight or group of flights in the syllabus call for the 'add on'. Just curious...

Bdger

Quote:

Originally Posted by crewdawg (Post 1283599)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1281807)

If it was so easy, they should have been able to teach the procedures in a classroom, and go practice it in flight on the first sortie.

I guess this depends on what you're flying. This is exactly what my airframe does. Granted, my aircraft is much more responsive.

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Originally Posted by Hacker15e (Post 1283884)

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Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1281807)

If it was so easy, they should have been able to teach the procedures in a classroom, and go practice it in flight on the first sortie.

I realize this was over a week and 40 posts ago, but there was an important point you both seem to have missed or forgotten. For your review:

Quote:

Originally Posted by reCALcitrant (Post 1280204)

Refueling is close trail. Not hard. And not hard in a heavy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reCALcitrant (Post 1281146)

You guys act like I haven't done this a few times. Please. I flew Buffs with no ailerons. This crap isn't hard.

AR in a heavy is not close trail in a T-38.

I would certainly hope that it's easier to maneuver a fighter on the boom than a heavy.

==================================================

Quote:

Originally Posted by crewdawg (Post 1283599)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1281807)

I do know that in some airframes, copilots are not allowed to close beyond pre-contact without an Instructor who is specifically certified to instruct air refueling.

This is valid, there is a reason they were sent to an aircraft requiring two pilots...

Ehh, didn't take long, did it? Attempt to elevate yourself by putting others down.

Sweet ...

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacker15e (Post 1282363)

This is the part where I post the shot of whales mating over Afghanistan in '07:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...E/DSC_2643.jpg

Great picture, but "whales" are B-747s.

.

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Originally Posted by reCALcitrant (Post 1282259)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1281807)

While the first word which came to my mind is a form of excrement, I am compelled by polite company to instead declare you are full of bluster.

Because you found it hard? Everybody does it, by definition, the worst AF pilot can do it.

Actually, everybody does not do it. I guess that blows your definition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reCALcitrant (Post 1282259)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1281807)

When I went through Castle in the early 80s on my way to a receiver variant of the -135, I had an opportunity to spend one brief session in a facility specifically designed and dedicated to teaching receiver air refueling. The B-52 Air Refueling Part Task Trainer consisted of a dedicated building with a simulator, complete with realistic (for its time) visual, an array of supporting training devices and computer banks, all supported by a dedicated staff of technical support and maintenance, as well as schedulers and instructors. It was there where I got my first glimpse of A/R from the receiver end of the boom.

Yea, that thing hasn't been used since Castle closed. So must have been important.:rolleyes:

They don't use the Life Support building at Castle for life support anymore, either. Does that mean you fly without oxygen and parachutes?

The ARPTT was built when standard simulators could not replicate the task. Today, the full-motion simulators with life-like visuals are up to the task. The task of air refueling is still taught in the same way, just in a different device.

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Originally Posted by reCALcitrant (Post 1282259)

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Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1281807)

Ask yourself this. If receiver A/R was so dadgum easy, why did the Air Force invest so much money and resources into a device dedicated to teaching that task, and that task only? If it was so easy, they should have been able to teach the procedures in a classroom, and go practice it in flight on the first sortie.

Because the Air Force is stupid and wastes money.

Can't argue that statement, but it's not an answer to my question.

The answer is that the task is not so dadgum easy in a heavy, and if you put a brand new pilot in the seat with no prior simulator training, he might never get the first contact. Every refueling track has an exit, and they cost a ton of money. That's the same reason you train landings in the sim before you train them in the jet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reCALcitrant (Post 1282259)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1281807)

I don't know what all the different communities do or have done in the past, or what they do today. I do know that in some airframes, copilots are not allowed to close beyond pre-contact without an Instructor who is specifically certified to instruct air refueling. Where I was, every aircraft commander could supervise copilot refueling. We did an awful lot of refueling -- rarely flying a sortie without it. Other folks had a hard time staying current. I would venture that the pilot flying in that video was on the low experience end of that spectrum. But whether you did it a little and struggled with it, or did it a lot and were very proficient -- it was hard, and dangerous.

Really? Hard, dangerous? We do it every day all over the country.

That doesn't prove it's easy. It only shows that we're good at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reCALcitrant (Post 1282259)

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Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1281807)

Remember when B-52 pilots had to wear parachutes and helmets to A/R? Was that a measure taken for comfort, or did it recognize the hazard?

We still do. It's because it's considered a critical phase of flight by the Life support reg. Like landings, high level bomb runs with 30 degrees of bank, and Takeoff. Very dangerous stuff.

Those life support folks have a great union, don't they! They get to decide what's critical and what's not.

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Originally Posted by reCALcitrant (Post 1282259)

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Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1281807)

CFIC -- Consolidated Flight Instructor Course, for KC-135 and B-52 Instructors. As long as the weather allowed, we all did the whifferdill while in contact. It was a confidence maneuver which demonstrated that the success of the aerial refueling had little to do with the attitude of the two airplanes -- bank, pitch, speed. Successful refueling depends on the smooth, stable platform provided by the tanker and the deliberate, steady inputs made by the receiver. If the receiver concentrated on the tanker, he would be surprised to see the strange horizon relative to the airplanes shown in the pictures.

I never said the whiff was easy, just AR. But certainly if you can stay on the boom at 90 degrees of bank, straight and level should be cake.

I'll give you the last word. I'm tired of discussing how difficult normal AR is. My opinion after doing it for 9 years in B-52's is that it is easy. Certainly if it's night, weather, and bad turbulence, it's harder, but day to day....not rocket surgery.

Your opinion, and the supporting rationale, is noted. Also noted is the best part of your argument with which you closed:

Quote:

Originally Posted by reCALcitrant (Post 1282259)

Last word is yours Toad driver.:D

That must make you feel swell to try to put others down.

I am now absolutely convinced of your superiority.

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1283899)

Ehh, didn't take long, did it? Attempt to elevate yourself by putting others down.

Sweet ...
.

Oh come on Tony, you had to have known that was a joke!
http://cdn.styleforum.net/5/52/52e19...p_francis.jpeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1283910)

....The ARPTT was built when standard simulators could not replicate the task. Today, the full-motion simulators with life-like visuals are up to the task. The task of air refueling is still taught in the same way, just in a different device.

It's been coming up on 3 years since I retired, but the BUFF WST was not sim certed for AR, even with the upgraded visuals that were added circa 2010. Although FOV was expanded, no visuals were added to support the #6 (eyebrow) window.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1283910)

...The answer is that the task is not so dadgum easy in a heavy...

Agreed

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1283910)

... and if you put a brand new pilot in the seat with no prior simulator training, he might never get the first contact.

Yup, seen it happen in a few cases, although most BUFF co-pilots get exposure to AR before upgrading. At one point, AC's could be checked out to supervise their co-pilot during AR, including contacts. IIRC, they did away with that at some point and co-pilot AR can now only be supervised by an instructor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1283910)

...That's the same reason you train landings in the sim before you train them in the jet...

Of definite value with a Class D simulator, much less so in the B-52 WST (I'm referring to the old visuals). The WST was never sim certed for landings before the visuals were upgraded, and for a good reason IMO. I do not know if they sim certed it for landings with new visuals.