One casuality of the budget cuts - Flyovers!
 

Y! SPORTS

Too bad. :(
LOVED the flyovers.
Good training for the young guys too for the coordination aspects.

nothing wrong with combining militarism and hyper comsumerism..... poor people don't need to eat!! But one must admit... flyovers are huge waste of money.... oh wait... it's 'training'

Don't know about you - but I got training and so did the new guys I flew with sometimes. I guess if you did them and didn't get anything out of them that is unfortunate.

Poor people need to get a freaking job.....any job.

wow... that was easy.... :rolleyes:

how about we bloat the DoD budget and not invest domestically.... or wait never mind....

Obviously this is turning political, so in an attempt to prevent this thread from devolving into a partisan hyperbolical debate lets just say that the spending problem in Washington is one that stretches through many, if not all, departments/branches of our federal Government.

Guilty parties can be found in both political parties, but at this point I've had my fill of finger pointing and I'm interested in some viable, realistic solutions to fix this economy, our budget, and unemployment.

Unfortunately, I don't see this happening in the next four years.

Well, the MIL, the MIC and flyovers isn't a part a solution, so why aggrandize losing them as if they are actually of value.....

Why not allow citizens to vote for candidates as well as what departments their tax dollar are to be used....

Just make sure the new duty officer's flat screens are bought before the end of the FY

It's not intended as consumerism or training, it's intended as a recruiting tool, maybe with a little show-the-flag thrown in.

If we're making big cuts, recruiting will be a low priority.

The reason we have a republic rather than a democracy is to that (theoretically) wiser elected officials can take the longer view rather than just helping themselves to the trough.

Pure democracy would see about 40-50% of the population voting expenditures for one thing and one thing only...themselves. It would then be up to the rest of us to target spending for critical infrastructure, defense, law enforcement, etc. The only way this could possibly work is if everyone voted for a percentage based on their own tax contribution...ie no tax, no vote.

This would mean that 35-65 year-olds would do most of the voting, with the retired senior citizens unable to tap the fruit of the labor of their successors.

Ours ALWAYS included training. If not the training actually occurring before and during the flyover then certainly for the rest of the weekend.
Maybe other people, services, squadrons did things differently :confused:
I certainly never got to take a 2/4 ship on the road for an entire weekend solely for the purpose of a flyover.

no, but the sporting events are hyper consumerism... and if the MIC can 'honor' the troops while people are feeling good drinking beer, all the better... why not normalize the Empire as much as possible.



such was the attitudes in ancient Greece and 1770s... white landowners..... but we have progressed haven't we? With a majority passed an 8th grade education....

maybe, however if the categories were limited... it might yeild different results... currently the elites control the treasury and they vote/spend on themselves....

sounds workable.... than the status quo...

Having lead and flown a number of flyovers, some for very high profile events, I can tell you without a doubt there is a ton of training to be had that is directly combat related.

Without getting into the weeds, close air support in theater can more ofthen than not require your weapon impacting a certain target at an exact time, within a fluid situation, and that weapon needs to hit +/- 10 seconds.

Going out to your local bombing range and doing that 6-12 times with 25 lb practice bombs is easy. Especially after the first one, when you figure out all the variables. In the real world you get one shot, and guys are depending on you to get it right.

Move the situation to a stadium packed with 100K people, for an event airing on live TV for all your buds at home to see (as well as America). Same circumstance, you've got a fluid situation coordinating with guys on the ground to try and hit a time on target, that is constantly shifting, and you need +/- 5 seconds for it to look good. Perfection is the expectation, and oh-by-the-way, the team set you up with box seats and a 50 yard line appearance at half time. You screw this up, you may not want to show your face at the stadium. Think there's a little pressure there? Granted not life endangering pressure, but still fantastic training.

Couple that with the coordination that goes on weeks ahead of time with ATC, the FAA, local agencies.... for a one time event it's fantastic training, expecially for a junior guy. The recruiting bang for the buck is just gravy on money that's already going to be spent anyway.

Translation: I wants moar free stuff, and I don't care who gots to pay for it.

Just came from my old squadron where several exercises were cancelled. Several GS guys got sent home. Cut one day a week.

wow, thanks... I didn't realize how much of a waste of tax payer dollars these flyovers really are,.... throw in the bravado and perfectionism.. 'don't mess this up stuff' and it really seems to benefit a small few.... if we are going to be fiscal conservatives... this is a great place to start cutting the waste! Instead of trying to recruit boys with silly fly bys why not spend the money on fixing the MILs high suicide rate.. just sayin :rolleyes:

There's nothing fiscally wrong with flyovers, technically speaking. There is a specific purpose and benefit, plus the opportunity to do training since almost any tacair flying is legit training. One jet flyover probably has more recruiting benefit than 50 enlisted recruiters beating the bushes for a month or two. The military do have a specific and legitimate requirement to recruit new members (until we re-instate the draft)

The problem is that they APPEAR to be wasteful to the uninformed, and will probably have to fall by the wayside for that reason alone.

But you don't seem to have the slightest clue...you're mixing military operators with the highest levels of greed and corruption in our society. Those two are not related.

Sacrifice the "golden cow." In 1976 I was told to cut 10% of my USAFA airmanship budget with minimum impact on the cadet wing. I said OK this cut will only effect 12 cadets and save more then 10%. Cheers from HQ until they found I was cutting the USAFA Parachuting team and an order for two twin otters. They found the money somewhere else.

Yep, officially it's only done when they think it will benefit recruiting OR in support of veterans functions. They supposedly will combine it with training and do other requested fly-bys if it's "on the way", but I've seen in the last couple years they've been pretty tight with that. It's a joint effort between the military and FAA to approve this, the military from their budget/money aspect and the FAA from the safety side. Many are stopped by either organization due to those issues. The person or organization requesting the fly-by usually has no clue about what they are asking for.

Got an ax to grind?

you are simply assuming that your values are fundamental and universal....


The MIL and MIC are of empire, causing this country serious harm and one starts a thread to lament the loss of self aggrandizing and highly expensive fly-overs....

For those advocating these fly overs... hypothetically... choose one.
(for the knowledgeable, how much does, generally, does a 4 ship flyover cost? Since it is 'entertainment' at a sports event, who pays for it? The tax payer? The consumer? The event corporation (NFL for example)

A. Fly Overs
B. Funding to address the serious problem of MIL suicides and rape.

Actually, we hit up the airspace and do some training prior to any flyover we do.

FLY OVERS.
And they cost MILLIONS! :D

Fly overs are already paid for. It comes out of a squadrons budget, which they MUST use to maintain readiness. If you don't meet XYZ training events, you don't maintain your certain level of mandated readiness. We can hit a lot of those wickets with a flyover. i.e. that money is going to be flown somewhere, we get extra return doing flyovers. Conversely if we're out of money, but readiness is met, no flyover.

Turn off MSNBC. You could cut the ENTIRE DOD budget, just shutter the entire military, and you still wouldn't begin to make a dent in our fiscal problems. You're getting all spun up over a fraction, of a fraction, of a fraction of a percent of the big picture. They'll be killed though to satisfy the perception people like you have. Truth is, we'll still fly those hours anyway because we have to.

Flyovers....Heck Airshows
 

Nevermind flyovers....
Forget about jets going to airshows, and worst of all, no Thunderbirds or Blues.... :(

So who determines if it already paid for? Or just accept it?

What is MSNBC? Is that for profit information that you'd call news?


good call. another waste.....

Those two squadrons should have been gone YEARS ago.

HAHAHA...awesome, so true! Even better, let the closed circuit feed for hallway mounted TVs break, then print and tape power point slides that were once feed to said TVs, onto the screens. Thousand dollar bulletin boards!

Looked up the price of a T-6B. $6.1 mil each, not including spares or MX support. USN bought 252 of them to teach students how to takeoff, fly, and land. Makes a brand new $300K C172 seem like one hell of a bargain!

I agree with USMCFLYR, all the flyby's I participated in were part of a normal local training sortie. We just adjusted or re-routed the flightplan to be over the stadium/flyby area to fit the users needs. It was good training

I agree. I loved the flyovers too, and have always heard from experienced folks that they were highly beneficial to the aircrews who flew them.

And yes, certain voices in this forum most definitely have an political axe to grind re: this topic.

Good news gentlemen, all the kabuki about cuts matters not!

"Today is the day when an unprecedented $85 billion spending cuts will be sequestered, unleashing famine, pestilence, the apocalypse and grizzly bears (as all park rangers will be dead from starvation). Which is why we applaud the administration's desire to preempt this tragic for the nation outcome, by issuing, in one day alone: February 28, $80 billion in Treasurys sending debt to (obviously) what is a new all time high $16,687,289,180,215.37.

In other words, the entire apocalyptic impact of the sequester for 2013 was offset by one day's debt issuance."


Bravo, now see how easy that was, it only took one day.:D

Chant with me! USA! USA! USA! USA #1!

Bravado and perfectionism is what makes aircrews strive to be better. It's what makes us better than any other flying force in the world. (and yes I've flown agains the Israelis and most European AF's) I could care less what anyone other than my squadron mates (and myself) think about my tactical ability in the jet. Not "messing this stuff up" in the minds of the people that matter (the guys I go to war with) is a HUGE motivator. And it does only benefit a few, who else other than the four pilots, or one crew, etc. is flying training supposed to benefit? I get that the image of flyovers are a waste, so agree that we should cancel them for the time being, but saying they have no value is short sighted and uninformed.

Just one tactical aviator's two cents.

Perspective:

The Blues total annual budget is 1/2 that of the Superbowl ads.

One hour on AF1 would pay for 2 airshows.

I know which One I would ground.

Blue Angels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Super Bowl advertising - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Common sense should be somewhat universal.



They are not any more expensive than if they took the same budgeted flight hours and flew them somewhere else. But since they could easily lead a casual observer to assume it's a waste off money, it only makes sense to stop for the time being.

Self-aggrandizing? Well it is a marketing effort, so maybe if you twist some adverbs around you could paint it is a self-aggrandizing.

The "MIL" we are talking about (individual airplanes, operators, and squadrons are not part of the MIC.

The MIC is certainly a legit concern, and requires constant vigilance to restrain. But the MIC is made up of corporations and political leaders (maybe a tiny handful of very senior military officers are peripherally involved). Remember, the military leaders who actually make large-scale funding decisions are elected or appointed civilians. That major or captain doing the flyover wasn't the guy who contracted with Lock-Mart to provide his airplane.

From the military perspective, a stadium full of 100,000 people is a prime opportunity to get some positive exposure towards recruiting. I doubt the corporation benefits very much...the flyover is not the reason all those people bought tickets. The military is taking advantage of an opportunity to reach out to a big crowd (provided by the corporation), not vice versa.

Another example: Movies. When the DoD allows it's hardware to participate in movie making 1) The movie has to have recruiting value and 2) the film-maker pays the cost...all of it.

Like we keep saying, flyover money is not "extra" money...it's going to be spent on flight hours anyway. IMO it would be worth the cost of the flight time just for the recruiting benefit.

Honestly, you have a seriously warped perspective about the realities of government, the military, and finance. I'm no apologist for what's wrong with the system, but your attitudes border on tin-foil hat conspiracy theories. Your problem here is that you're debating with a bunch of folks who have years (decades) of experience and perspective on these issues from both from the inside and outside. There are probably forums elsewhere where your highly simplified outlook would be welcomed with open arms. This forum is not kindergarten (maybe junior high school, but not kindergarten).

Al-Queda has tactical jets?

It isn't that flyovers don't have training value... it is that as a country, we actually value other things ..... more.

note the Marine reply.... I asked would you want to save lives and violence to stop MIL rape and suicides or have flyovers.... his reply ... flyovers...

Come on, rick. Quantify how many people ran out to the recruiting office after they saw a stadium flyover.

Or the Blues...or the Tbirds.

Flight demo teams should have been abandoned after the accident where the 4 Tbirds were killed practicing in the desert.

why choose? :rolleyes:

P.S. Using T-38s or A-4s (essentially training airplanes) for flight demo teams is way preferable than using current tactical assets like Vipers or Hornets. There's 12-14 airframes that belong in the fleet.

The Snowbirds and Red Arrows use trainers and I submit their shows are as good as ours.