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-   -   Rafale Kills F-22 ?? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/76384-rafale-kills-f-22-a.html)

KC10 FATboy 08-06-2013 09:04 AM

Rafale Kills F-22 ??
 
On another website I'm on that is made up of mostly foreigners, this video has a lot of people talking. I was wondering if anyone could lend any credibility to it or any insight?


USMCFLYR 08-06-2013 09:45 AM

Looks and sounds like a good training evolution.
I didn't see too many valid shot opportunities - but there were a few.
I heard a Fox-2 call but obvoiously am not familiar enough with the Rafale HUD (and there were no aural tunes that I am familiar with) to validate that shot.
In my opinion that is one BUSY HUD though! Could they fit anything else on there? I liked the 'Release Stick' comment that comes up in the middle during the fight.

DL31082 08-06-2013 10:02 AM

Rafale Kills F-22 ??
 
In the text it also said the the F-22 was dogfighting with external drop tanks decreasing it capabilities.

Grumble 08-06-2013 10:18 AM

Either this dude was terrible at BFM (not likely) or he was sand bagging and/or handcuffed. The F-22 can swap ends in a second. Those tracking moments were not for lack of performance by the Raptor. Perhaps it was tanked up. One HUD clip doesn't tell the whole story.

I've been "killed" by Pakistani and French Mirages, Egyptian F-4 and F-16s, etc. "Oh yeah, you got me. Good job." Usually after they had either busted training rules and/or we were perfomance/equipment limited.

It was always fun though.

USMCFLYR 08-06-2013 10:51 AM

Yes - the training environment is not the end of the story in any air-air (or air-ground) scenario for sure. With the cost of flying those things though - it is hard for me to imagine them playing red air with some of the more restrictive capabilities often imposed on the adversaries.

nwaf16dude 08-06-2013 01:28 PM

Looks like that was from the UAE's TLP wanna-be exercise. I spent a few months over there doing White Force/Air Boss. What a total cluster...trying to get anyone to follow the rules/cuffs was next to impossible. One ridiculous kill call after another. Guys claiming more kills than missiles carried. After a few days the American guys were just staying in their block trying not to get killed for real. The French were particularly bad because they were ****ed that the emiratis bought block 60 F-16s instead of Rafale.

Hilltopper89 08-06-2013 01:28 PM

I remember coming out of BFM in the FTU thinking how SH I was for getting 7 Fox 2s and 3 guns tracks on a Viper. Thing is he was a training aid for my 20 hours in the Hawg. I was supposed to win. I suspect likewise here. Cuffed.

Adlerdriver 08-07-2013 09:12 AM

Two observations:
The merge appears to be about 2:38 into the video. After they go 1-circle, ~12 seconds later the Frog pilot has the Raptor in his hud, at approximately 3K' with 150-160 degrees of aspect. Any competent pilot in a 4th generation fighter (never mind a Raptor) should be able to avoid that outcome - that suggests 'cuffs of some sort to me.

The next 15 seconds suggest bad assessment/execution. After the second merge, the Raptor pilot seems to make a pretty big error with essentially a level reversal, across the Frog's nose resulting in the Fox-2 call (I'm assuming some kind of seriously capable HOBS heater, 'cuz that ain't no old-fashioned -9M equivalent WEZ - even then, it might be BS). Cuffs or not, you can't reverse half-a$$ and put the guy's nose back on you.

Grumble 08-07-2013 09:35 AM


Originally Posted by Adlerdriver (Post 1458603)
Two observations:
The merge appears to be about 2:38 into the video. After they go 1-circle, ~12 seconds later the Frog pilot has the Raptor in his hud, at approximately 3K' with 150-160 degrees of aspect. Any competent pilot in a 4th generation fighter (never mind a Raptor) should be able to avoid that outcome - that suggests 'cuffs of some sort to me.

The next 15 seconds suggest bad assessment/execution. After the second merge, the Raptor pilot seems to make a pretty big error with essentially a level reversal, across the Frog's nose resulting in the Fox-2 call (I'm assuming some kind of seriously capable HOBS heater, 'cuz that ain't no old-fashioned -9M equivalent WEZ - even then, it might be BS). Cuffs or not, you can't reverse half-a$$ and put the guy's nose back on you.

HOBS has gotten pretty eyewatering the last few years... too bad the -22 guys don't know anything about it. :p

He may have just been bored or so handcuffed that it wasn't worth it, and he was more interested in getting back to the bar. Agree the reversal was a pretty egregous BFM error (my weapon is my control zone, I shall beat you to death with it), but the Raptor has the thrust and alpha to recover from even a terrible desicion in about .3 seconds.

Adlerdriver 08-07-2013 10:00 AM


Originally Posted by Grumble (Post 1458614)
Agree the reversal was a pretty egregous BFM error (my weapon is my control zone, I shall beat you to death with it), but the Raptor has the thrust and alpha to recover from even a terrible desicion in about .3 seconds.

But, he doesn't - he just put the knife in his teeth and committed to the phone booth with thrust and alpha available and then he goes aggressively down and opens the fight back up. Either those external tanks are seriously restrictive, he was power limited by scenario or maybe he's just the squadron slug (possible former F-16 driver?? :D... I keed, I keed).
That's about all the Monday morning QB stuff I can muster - nothing like having the world debrief your BFM. After 5 years flying Eagles in Europe, the only thing French I still respected was their EA/EP.


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