I also believe the payback applies to any type of military retirement. So if you get a traditional guard/reserve retirement at age 60, you will also pay that back. This could be a financial hit for someone who was not planning for it, if they truly retire and don't work until age 65 or the new FAR that will probably be here in 2030 of fly until you die :mad:

I received a response from SWA on this issue. They said to go ahead and put any student/dual/UPT in the SIC column because it should be included in your total time. Hope that clears it up and gives a couple hundred hour boost to those that were excluding it.

Someone told me a while back to not include my UPT time, so I haven't been. I'm sure that is totally incorrect, but hey, I have a good 200 hrs that I can dip into if needed for my total time. :D

All good information here, but now I'm more worried than before I put in my VSP package. Former C-17s stuck in RPA with no end in sight. Family just can't stand Cannon anymore, with prospect of Holloman as next assignment. Back to MAF chances look abysmal. Looking at JBLM Reserve and regional in the NW, but the RPA stink puts me at a significant disadvantage. 1500 C-17 hours, but have to subtract 450 other time. Only about 200 PIC in C-17. I very much doubt any MQ-1 PIC/IP time will count for jack**** with the airlines, but feel free to throw spears for me mentioning it. Plus I hit 35 months from my last C-17 flight which by the time I get out, any reserve unit will need to pay for an Altus requal for me (39 months non-current or unqualed?) Maybe I should retract that app, but then again I'll gladly work at Lowes? Anyone see a silver lining here?

That's good to hear, but on the other side of this discussion would you say someone who has been out of a specific unit's aircraft for over three years isn't very attractive due to needing a full requal? Also, is the going perspective of guard/reserve on RPA guys that "he must have been a total DB if he got sent to RPA?"

Why would you have to go back to Holloman?

There's hiring going on everywhere right now except the USAF. Not many will get handed an easy job, but plenty of openings for guys working their way up. I see much more opportunity outside of AD Air Force for at least the next several years.

Since Cannon is the only AFSOC RPA base the functional either has to commit to sending us to ACC, AFSOC staff or another AFSOC asset. Doesn't help to prop up AFSOC RPA for the future, so they figure any IP could at least train the AFSOC RPA of the future, thus a bit of a win for big blue and AFSOC in general.

you don't have to subtract the OTHER time when you were the PIC. Your other time in that case still goes in the PIC column. when you sign for a jet, youre always the PIC, even when youre not at the controls. The FAA is on board with this (I fly supplemental 121 where I often am not in the seat in legs greater than 8 hours, but still in command). You only need to subtract the other time when you were a copilot/first pilot, or not the PIC.

also don't worry about recency of experience, you could go over to Trans States, SkyWest, or some other regional airline to pick up a few months worth of flight time. A lot of regionals don't care when you last flew, they just care that you have a pulse, and I bet if you didn't have a pulse theyd still hire you :)

Thanks ghilis. I used your previous post to calculate hours. Sitting about 1400 TT. Need to do more work on PIC time based on MP code date. I suppose I could pull the restricted ATP with the 750 mil clause. Would that be worthwhile or should I start working on logging those 100 hrs on my own? Also, do you need a full ATP cert like you can get with some of those 2-5 day programs or just the written. Looking for example at horizon it just says written.

If I were you LossofClockData and you knew you did not want to make the Air Force a career and the airlines were where you wanted to be then I would try and VSP, get hired by a Regional to build your time, and also get hired by a UAV guard/reserve unit so you can supplement your Regional income and still have Tricare for your family.

VSP was in 6 Feb and I like your thought process, but a big part of our decision was to get back to the NW for some family health concerns and desire to be in that location. Unfortunately no UAV units up there. Ideally reserve at McChord, but then again we don't always get what we want.

If your harms printout says more than 1500 hrs, you can get your unrestricted ATP because I think you can include other time for that purpose. But you would be hired by any regional airline tomorrow if you applied, and I think now that it's required, they'll give you your ATP in training, or at least some of them will. It's absolutely worth it whether you choose to get it on your own now or through a regional.

So, a Navy guy can count special crew time in the ATP calculation?

when we were at flight safety they made us subtract the 'other' time from the HARM print out.

Here's my experience with the VSP.

I wanted more than what AD life had to offer so took the VSP back in 2007 with nearly 10 years of service. It was around 120K before taxes. I didn't spend a penny and slowly invested it over about 3 years.

I was hired right away and made a clean break from the military. Life was satisfactory. After a year at my airline, I applied for a job at my hometown Guard unit. Absolutely love it. I split my time about 50/50 and life is good to very good. I know I'll be paying the VSP back in small allotments upon receiving my first retirement check at age 60, but I am working to make sure that is painless. If you consider it a loan, it's a damn good deal.

Someone mentioned insurance. I occasionally take some 30-60 day orders and get six months of TAMP (Tricare) at no cost. Otherwise, Tricare Reserve Selects costs my family about $200 a month. Also, I did 180 days of orders a couple years ago and no one asked for my VSP.

You will eventually get hired, but you won't always be able to VSP. I'd say take it, get a Guard/Reserve gig, and get a few hours at a Regional while you're waiting. In speaking with friends, it seems the consensus is the quality of life/career is deteriorating more quickly in the ADAF than the airlines.

Good Luck!

But you would be hired by any regional airline tomorrow if you applied, and I think now that it's required, they'll give you your ATP in training, or at least some of them will. It's absolutely worth it whether you choose to get it on your own now or through a regional.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I was thinking they are fairly picky right now from what everyone else was saying, but perhaps that's just the majors.

Interesting. I was thinking they are fairly picky right now from what everyone else was saying, but perhaps that's just the majors.[/QUOTE]

Everything I've read is that the Regional's can't find enough qualified applicants right now.

Everything I've read is that the Regional's can't find enough qualified applicants right now.[/QUOTE]

Well, FWIW, I have been at United for almost a year and recently got a rejection letter from Compass since my airlineapps account is still in good standing. They said they were "seeking more highly qualified applicants at this time." I did send them a humorous reply, however.

Post it! (if you don't mind)

It was no big deal. Just let them know I was employed and by whom.

Why wouldn't you be able to go back to the C-17?

There is always a chance, but it doesn't look good for the foreseeable future. Why retrain someone back when you'll just have to kick another guy out for his "alpha" tour. Mobility is over manned, RPA is undermanned, especially in new mexico. Exactly why 18X and 11U are blacked out for VSP, RIF and every other program. At least big blue is keeping their promise to the UPT directs. Not so for the rest of us. The black hole is hard to overcome just like everyone said when they started pulling from other 11X. 11Fs have a chance, as they are predicted to be short soon.

Interesting. I was thinking they are fairly picky right now from what everyone else was saying, but perhaps that's just the majors.[/QUOTE]

Horizon is still picky because of their niche. SkyWest would hire you tomorrow. If you wanted northwest basing you could fly the Brasilia (EMB-120) which is a rather short commute from SEA, I think maybe to Portland or somewhere in Norcal. Literally every other regional is to the point of hiring over the phone. Places like Republic have less than 50 percent of the people they hire show up to class. One of their classes a few months ago, only like 1 or 2 people showed to class, even with the $5k signing bonus. Haha.

As for the ATP thing, since mil gets the restricted ATP under 1500 hrs, I guess it wouldn't matter whether you were able to count OTHER or not. My understanding is your restricted ATP automatically becomes unrestricted once you reach 1500 hours anyway? Can someone confirm?

From reading 61.160, you are basically correct

(g) An airline transport pilot certificate obtained under this section is subject to the pilot in command limitations set forth in §61.167(b) and must contain the following limitation, “Restricted in accordance with 14 CFR 61.167.” The pilot is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the limitation specified in this paragraph when the applicant presents satisfactory evidence of having met the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 and the age requirement of §61.153(a)(1).

I think you will just have to fill out and submit another 8710 and the restriction will be lifted.

Fly and LossofClock,

I'm right there with both of you in thinking that the opportunities outside of the AD AF are growing while opportunities for those who stay in will diminish. Leadership has made it plainly obvious they value new weapons systems over people, and as these new programs (F-35, KC-46, New Long Range Bomber) get further along with inevitable cost overruns, I think you will see more cuts in the future. For me the clock is ticking as far as opportunity to build flying time and experience, and I'm gaining neither sitting in a GCS all day.

Since the fear my current leadership has about the possible departure of 11M crossflows has been quite evident the past few weeks, I have seriously been examining my options outside of the AD AF. All of my contacts at airlines and guard units seem to have nothing but good news to tell me, so I take that as a sign I should at least apply for the VSP and see what happens. If Big Blue wants to pay me to leave, and I'll still have opportunities to serve in my hometown while flying for an airline (even a regional) I think I'll take that over my current situation.

I only have 1180 TT, 879 C-17 hours, 150 PIC in the 17 and I was told that by current employees that I would be hired by a regional very quickly. I'll keep you guys posted on what's happening with my VSP.

And I'll take any reserve/guard hook ups you have for elmo/mcchord. FYI WVANG is transitioning from C5 to C17 at the end of this year but not exactly where my family wants to end up long term.

Slight thread jack, but what are some of you AD AF guys thoughts/experiences with AD Navy guys getting picked up for ANG? 2300+ TT, 1300 H-60, 900 C-12, ATP in both. Thanks!

As long as it's not my slot. Honestly don't know.

Finally got the response from SWA support. Their reply says AF student time can be counted as SIC, Turbine and Total time.

Could you post their email reply (if there was one)?

I added the (student time) for context.

So I submitted my VSP application on 14 Feb. It was immediately recommended for disapproval by my Sqdn CC and sent to the wing. He was nice enough to put in the comments that he recommended disapproval due to squadron manning, but that since I'm an 11M, I'm eligible for VSP.

I know the decisions will be made much higher than the sqdn or wing level, so here's to hoping.

VSP denied due to remaining ADSC even though AFPC told us we were eligible to apply and our year groups were over and would be RIF'd. AFPC is the biggest bunch of ass clowns. I swear if I flew my jet the way they do their jobs my crew and I would have been dead a long time ago. What a joke. IG complaint being filed tomorrow for their bait and switch antics.

Sounds like it's working out just as they had planned and just like VSP worked 4 years ago: get all the non team players to show their hand early so they know who to RIF and/or slam with the horrible jobs. I'm so glad I left last year. Sorry bros....

This is exactly how it worked out in 2011. If you're also coming up on promotion, showing your hand WILL impact your chances of getting a DP.

What will be the substance of your IG complaint?

I'm defintiely not siding with AFPC (as I don't agree with the way things are being handled as well), but you (and I) are just binary numbers in the grand scheme of things. It's business, not personal.

Now, if you can PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that you are being singled out because you showed your hand, then that is a completely different animal.

As it stands, and it hurts me to say this, but you will just be wasting your breath. Just keep in mind, and it's something I learned many assignments ago, is to not burn ANY bridges on your way out the door. You never know when you need to use that bridge again....

It will be a complaint regarding the way they handled this entire situation and released information that was incorrect that people were supposed to use to make life/career decisions. I gave up time with my family over the holidays just before I left on a deployment to go talk to Guard/Reserve units and get the ball rolling with them. Just think of all the guys that bought plane tickets and hotels to go interview with Guard/Reserve units after AFPC published overages and numbers for given year groups and made it clear those people were eligible for the RIF and would be eligible to VSP. Luckily my Commander has been nothing, but supportive throughout this entire situation and I believe he will not hold this against me, but not all Commanders feel that way and no organization in the Air Force should be allowed to run like this. They need to be held accountable for their actions. Lord knows if I ran my crew and my jet the way AFPC runs things I would be at least looking at a Q3 if not an FEB or even worse a loss of life. Nothing may come of it and I'm not trying to burn any bridges, but I still feel something needs to be said and these clowns need to be held accountable for their buffonery. /Rant off

Good solid rant. How much time left on your ADSC? You can tell them my separation was approved with 8.5 years remaining on my ADSC, including 1.5 years left on my USAFA commitment. I traded that for a 6 year commitment to the reserves. Of course that was back in 2005 when nobody was hiring. The AF is now going to see all their pilots rush off to the airlines, and at least they have the foresight to want to keep their pilots to avoid another huge shortage.

They were wrong, however, to open up VSP then re-neg on it. That was "putting the cart before the horse" or whatever. The good news is youre sitting comfortably in a 100-150K a year job (give or take) while you wait for your separation date to walk right into an airline job. Yes youll lose a few hundred to a thousand seniority numbers with a major, but when you put it in perspective, youre still ok.

I completely agree. I honestly don't blame the Air Force for wanting to hang onto their pilots. I already thought they were crazy for offering an early out to any pilot in any year group based on the looming pilot shortage, but as you said they can't offer it and then decide to re-neg after vMPF turned into the obamacare website due to the massive amount of pilots that raised their hand to get out. If nothing else this was a rude awakening for the Air Force and maybe they'll start treating people better if they want us to stay in.

But to answer your question I have 5 years left on my ADSC. I love my current job, flying job that is. I am sitting left seat flying a "vintage" aircraft that requires a lot of hand flying, I get to lead a large crew that has taught me more about CRM and challenged me far greater than my FAIP days, and I'll be set for a Major when I get out. Like you said the seniority would be nice and the chance to finally leave the AD BS behind me and join a Guard/Reserve team would be great, but there is still a lot to be grateful for.

Good on you for having the guts to punch at 1.5 years post UPT! It looks like it certainly paid off for you!