To VSP or not to VSP?
 

I just found out my year group is eligible for the VSP and they are trying to reduce a total of 77 of us by 26 so considering I have not started my Masters and was very late to complete SOS in-correspondence I believe I will be a prime target for the RIF should they not find 26 of us that are interested in taking the VSP.

With that said I am trying to gauge my job prospects on the outside. I am a former FAIP so the majority of my time is TPIC, but I don't have a lot of total time yet. I am putting an application in at my hometown Reserve unit and if accepted then I will definitely put in for the VSP, but based on my numbers below how do I look for getting an airline job? I know I won't be competitive for Delta or Southwest, but I also would rather not take a 75% paycut to go fly for a regional either. How competitive will I be at companies like JetBlue? Thoughts...

Pre-Conversion Numbers and I also should be able to increase all of those numbers by about 200 or so before I get out:

Total Time: 1622
Total Turbine: 1415
Total Turbine PIC: 1210

1. Nobody really knows unless they're on a hiring board. Pretty sure nobody on these forums has any say at any major airline. Take what I and others say with a grain of salt.

2. Your numbers barely meet mins.

3. Not everybody does a mil conversion, and several majors do not count your UPT time (not sure if that's part of your hours math). The ones who have a conversion mostly add .3 per sortie which won't buy you much, JB multiplies by 1.3.

4. Guys with double your time, with IP/SEFE experience, as former DOs and chiefs of safety sometimes get calls, sometimes don't.

5. There is no pilot shortage. Delta and United have over 11,000 applications on file. United isn't even interviewing until April due to simulator shortages and Delta's hands are mostly tied due to flow agreements. USA/AA and SWA are hiring but not in significant enough quantities to put a dent into those 11k guys already looking for a job.

Based on these observations, barring you're married to a chief pilot or your dad is the CEO I don't think you have much of a chance at any major or legacy in the immediate future. Your hours do not meet any of the minimums for companies like Spirit, Virgin, and JB (unless you have a Blue Dart). You are highly qualified to be a regional pilot, and that's about it. A good friend was informed the day he took command of a 300+ person squadron he'd been RIF'd and would be out of work in 6 months after being assured the AF would never RIF an incoming commander. The difference in severance pay was significant. Sorry, can't offer advice on whether to take VSP or not since I haven't seen your record; however, you're really the only one who can make that decision since only you know what level of pain you can withstand and what your responsibilities are.

6. Before listening to anybody here, refer back to #1.

EDIT; btw, never post again since you have exactly 169 posts. Well done.

Haha. Nice catch, but yeah I definitely didn't expect to fall into a job at a Major/Legacy. I was just hoping with guys jumping ship from companies like JetBlue for Legacies that they would be ramping up some hiring.

If I can snag a Reserve job I really don't mind flying for a Regional as well. Sure it'll be tough the next couple of years, but I figure I'll already have the minimum TPIC hours for the majority of the Majors/Legacies that most Regional FO's can't get and I can spend a couple years in the Regional's increasing that total time. Is my thinking right on that?

I think in 1-2 years you'll have the hours to be competitive just about anywhere. The regionals will love you since you're USAF trained but they know they'll get some time out of you since you're probably not going to be immediately hired away. Definitely start working a reserve job now. In addition to the income, you can dramatically improve your regional QoL by conflicting your schedule as a reservist.

I simply don't understand why you think the regionals are "below" you. Sure, it is a pay cut and it would suck. But, if you can jump on with a reserve/Guard unit like you said you're trying to do, then you've essentially broke even. With your credentials, you seem entitled to "something" but you haven't done the work yet to truly warrant.

Back in the midst of OEF/OIF, AMC had a standing waiver to have guys fly upwards of 125 hrs a month. If you think about the math, guys were getting your hours in a little over a year. Your time is definitely nothing to scoff at -- you did your time. But as Mike points out, you will be very hard pressed to find a job with your "minimal" time. But, you are PERFECT for a regional job.

I would suggest that you put in applications at EVERY airline out there. Stop looking at the pay scale. Get hired, build 121 time, and move on from there.

For some comparison: A guy in my SQ just got the interview/thumbs up from SWA. Former B-52 DO, check pilot, around 5000 hours, ton of IP time, Chief Pilot, etc.

Nobody wants to discourage you, we just want you to be realistic....keep in mind that a bunch of 2500-3500 hour Captains are about to be jumping ship as well. Hence, on paper, they are more competitive.

BTW, where were you a FAIP at?

Frame of reference: I have multiple, multiple friends who have 3,000+ single seat hours, IP, SEFE, DO, CC, etc. who haven't been called yet.

Sorry if I came across that way, but I never meant for it to sound like the regionals were below me. I was just wondering if it would be possible to avoid them. I do appreciate the honest straight forward advice. Sugar coating does no one any good.

But like you said a Reserve job combined with a Regional job, especially if you can keep them near each other, would be a pretty good deal right and just stick it out until a Legacy calls.

Sorry to hear, but good to know. Appreciate the info.

To VSP or not to VSP?
 

FLY, I get what you are saying. A regional job would be rough due salary and time on the road. But it keeps you current and you will pile up the hours super fast.
You could get a corporate pilot job with good pay but they usually don't fly a lot.
The good plan for you would be to get a flying reserve/guard job (anywhere) and go active duty as much as possible. Keep in mind if you activate voluntarily for 6 months at a time than you owe all of the VSP back. At least that is how it works for the Marines I believe it's a title 9 thing which affects you too.

Regional job plus flying reserve job may be best. Make sure you have good attendance (not counting mil leave) and don't call in sick too much at the regional job. All Majors will
check.

go guard/reserve after taking the VSP. youre technically on the hook to pay it back (in 20 years) if you transition to guard/reserve, but my guess is the AF will forget to bill you for it when you retire.

Know what youre getting yourself into. You really have to love the airline lifestyle or else you'll wish you stayed in. Commuting to work sucks, so if you can live in base, that would be the number one driver of whether you choose to stay in or get out. Getting out of the AF just to commute across the country to sit reserve is not going to be all that satisfying.

Also get used to some painful realities: taxes, health care costs, long term disability/loss of license premiums, no weekends or holidays off for the first XX years, perdiem is pennies on the dollar compared to what the govt pays, etc.

Good timing, low hours.

My advice:

Make the jump if your family can survive the pay cut ONLY and ONLY IF you can get a reserve job. The reserve job probably isn't going to afford you a big paycheck with the recent cut backs and the most certain future cut backs. But if you can fly your tail off, you can solve your low flying hours in a year or two.

Momma and the kids are going to hate you if you do the regional only gig and you're gone from home 20-something days a month and barely making enough money to feed and keep the lights on. If you do it, live near your pilot domicile. That way you'll see them more often.

If at all possible, DO NOT spend the VSP money. Bank it. Let it grow. If you stay in the reserves to get a retirement, you'll have to pay it back. But if you invest it and allow it to grow, you will make something off of it. If you plan on using it to survive, you are taking a big chance that in a year from now, you'll be out of money and working for a regional in a much worse financial situation. Also, any number of political and financial issues can cause the pilot hiring to stop temporarily for a year which would be devastating for you stuck at a regional.

Your flying time is low; however, as a FAIP you should have a lot of Instructor time which is a bonus .. UNLESS it is in the T-6 which isn't as desirable. Airlines much prefer multi-engine over single-engine.

Delta doesn't have a PIC requirement. You meet the mins. But I suspect Delta is hiring only those with a lot of experience. You need to find out exactly who is getting hired by who and with what hours. I know friends with double the flying time and experience who have not been called.

Can you get a reserve job at the training command? Continuing to build PIC time / instructor time would be very beneficial.

Stupid question ... what is the timing of the VSP and the potential RIF? Let's assume you stay, how long do you think it would be before you were RIFd? When I went through the VSP fiasco, the VSPers had well up to a year to stay after their VSP award. The RIF never came for my year group. So potentially, you could have a full year or more before you were let go. Depending on what you're flying, a year or two more experience is valuable in your case.

I hope my random thoughts help. I made the jump back in '07 and I haven't looked back. It was scary. But, I didn't have a family to take care of. Good luck.

Wow I did not know that. I knew about paying back the VSP if you earned a retirement, but I did not know about the 6 months of Active rule. That is definitely a game changer.

I was under the impression based off a thread I started awhile back and threads I have read on here that Turbine PIC is Turbine PIC and not to worry about Single vs Multi. It seemed as though Fedex was one of the only ones that distinguished between single and multi. I remember a ton of T-6 guys chiming in saying their time was rock solid for the airlines.

But you bring up a very good point. The RIF will buy me another 4 months on AD which equals more hours, more benefits, less separation pay, but more checks on the 1st and 15th and more time to work things out.

If I could get into a solid Guard/Reserve unit I'd bail in a heartbeat. I'd pick up cans on the side of the road for extra coin if that's what it took to have a taste of freedom. The military can manipulate the rules to their advantage at any time. Flying around for Skywest or Exp Jet will build the time quickly, and perhaps in the ANG or Reserves you can grab a TDY here or there for some extra coin. Here's the deal: When you CAN get hired, you will be available. You won't be stop-lossed, non-current from a non flying tour, and you will have some flexibility. I'd take that blood money (VSP), praise God, and start networking. Dribble it into your budget slowly as you make some belt tightening moves.

And apply to everyone. Get hired anywhere are you are in the game.

I pointed this out to some jr's in my current unit. The delta between VSP and RIF is only 0.25%. I'm not scoffing at $10+ K. But getting RIF'ed will allow you another 4-5 months active duty pay and bennies which should exceed anything you might lose by not VSP'ing. And that's more months racking up hours, hopefully PIC.

However, if you want to punch...there's no guarantee you'll get RIF'ed. If you KNOW you want out, hard to justify passing up VSP.

Tough choice man, work the guard/reserve hard.

FAT,

Do you have any supporting facts to back that up?

I have never heard of ANY body getting the axe for having high SE IP time.

I'm a PIT IP and fly with guys who have been hired/flying or are awaiting their class who well in excess of 3000 hrs of single-engine time (Viper, T-6). I have also reached out to our entire reserve network here at Randolph (over 70 airline guys) and NONE of them state that SE IP time is prefered one way or another over ME IP time.

Bottom line - I don't agree with the statement in bold.

Which airlines do not count your UPT time?

For another frame of reference. I know a 4 ship flight lead, no IP/EP time, w/ ~900 fighter hours, who was picked up by UAL. He did have some regional time and I think his TT was ~2,500. My squadron had 2 guys hired at DAL recently, both young majors, with ~1,800 single seat fighter hours (no civilian time). All three of these guys had STRONG connections. Bottom line, if you meet the mins, it's more about who you know!

You need to dig deep and ask yourself what you want out of your life. Since you're concidering it, I'd get out. Get a good guard/Reserve job, go to a good regional and I'd bet in a year or two you'd be in a good spot to get hired by a major. Good luck.

I took the VSP from the Marine Corps this past fall. I did a mountain of research before I pulled the trigger. If you do greater than 179 days voluntary (ADT/ ADOS) (not sure on exact acronyms) you trigger a payback. Technically you need to take a day off and then can go back on for 179. If you are involuntarily mobilized the time limit goes away. If you look up the 2014 OFFICER VSP MARADMIN in google it lays out some of this. I got the rest from some SMCR guys I know flying Hercs. I go terminal in May and am a rushing fool working the reserve flying piece. I'll start a new thread this summer to lay out anything I pick up in the process. Now I get to wait on a reserve board and the long wait in the application process with the majors. But at least my next moves are on my terms.

how long does it take to separate from AD these days? My palace chase back in 2005 took about 3 months. Go ahead and get all your applications in now with availability dates in the summer. If you get a call by UAL/DAL you likely wont see a class date for at least 6 months anyway. Gets you plenty of time to get approved for VSP/Palace Chase or Front/straight separation with guard or reserve job later in the future. Get your app in now and get in line, and start heavily networking. Patience is important, but start the process now. Good luck to all, I've had my app in with DAL and UAL since 2006, updating monthly for the last 3 years :)

Pretty much sums up my game plan. I am figuring approx. 6 months worst case to separate/palace chase especially with the A1 paperwork log jam that is ensuing with all the force shaping happening. I really wish I didn't sign the 4 year GI bill transfer when I did (17 months left), but AFPC assures me all I need is to palace chase and it will be honored since UPT commitment expired 3 months ago....who knows if they are right though.

good deal. commitments are totally waiverable. I left AD with 3.5 years active service, I owed 1.5 years on my USAF Academy commitment. They waived it no problem. If youre going reserves, that probably helps your case I think.

Yeah considering both Reserve/Guard opportunities. For now, I am staying AD since I am in a position to do so until an opportunity presents itself. It seems the lull in hiring is due to the training backlog at most majors, hopefully by spring/summer it clears and they will figure out ways to get capacity ramped up and start hiring consistently. For me, being in a hiring pool for a few months is ok since it gives me time to work separation like you alluded to above. My one fear is that the longer I wait, the AF could swing back the other way in order to prevent a mass exodus. Quite a few at my base are getting out/transferring to the guard for various reasons, not all airline either.

How many hours are IP's getting a year? Is bumming still possible in tankers in the reserve?

To VSP or not to VSP?
 

Don't get too discouraged, in 07 it was competitive too. Biggest thing is to get all your ducks in a row, network and get LORs.

I was able to snag 4 interviews in 07(CAL, DAL, NWA, AirTran), with only 700 hours of FW ME PIC. Granted, I had 3.2K TT but 1.5K if that was in helos.

Network!

Apply everywhere, take terminal LV whenever you get hired by anybody. I've had friends get out, take a job at a regional, leave during training, go to a 747 cargo operator for 6 month then snag a job at a major.

The scariest thing is taking the leap. If you WANT to get out, get out.

Good luck

I've been thinking about this nonstop for weeks. Can't decide. Mostly worried about family life as an airline pilot. Are there schedules out there where you can fly mostly out and backs?

Yes, but not until you have a ton of seniority. Best you can hope for is to move near a junior base. But at UAL, you go on the road for 3-4 days, esp as a junior guy.

This is cut and pasted from the SWA application site:

"**PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot in Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander n the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered."

Because SWA only has categories for PIC, SIC, and IP any student time does not get counted. It's likely there are others but I've got so many apps in I'm not going to double check every single one.

This statement is only defining PIC time and says Other time will not be considered. UPT time is not logged as Other time. Other time is usually logged by C-17/C-5 types for time spent in the bunk which is why airlines don't count it. Pretty sure UPT can counted as SIC

SIC in UPT can only be logged in an airplane requiring two pilots on its type certificate. BE-400/T-1. The 6/37/38 are all single pilot.

Spirit. you'd need to move near ACY or FLL. Spirit is awesome, its gonna be the next SWA. Lots of Carribean turns, sleep in your bed every night, FO pay is bad but Capt pay among the best for airbus.

Wow thanks!!!

What about DFW? Heard they had a base there too...do you fly for them?

I haven't applied, so haven't seen the application site, but the SWA website lists "Total Time" mins, then seperately lists the above PIC definition. Does the app use the same "not simply sole manipulator of the controls" along with PIC, SIC, IP wording to define total time as well? As a late rated fighter guy and having gone through CCIP in every squadron I've been in, dropping 250 hours of turbine time (UPT+IFF) hurts. Using that definition, you can have a COMM AMEL rating with zero hours countable towards SWA. (I know you wouldn't apply to any airline at that point, but it highlights the hour hit). But, if it's your company, you can set any rules you want.

AA wants you to count it
This is from AA FAQ's:

Q: What are the differences between PIC, SIC and Instructor Time when logged into the Flight Hours?


A: Here are the guidelines:

PIC (Pilot In Command) = Any time you signed for the plane as aircraft commander
or solo including all instructor time.
SIC (Second In Command) = Any time you acted as second in command and/or didn't sign for the plane.
This DOES include dual/student time.
Instructor = Only the time you logged as an instructor, regardless of the time being reported in PIC.
Instructor time is PIC time. It belongs in both columns.

I have not found this on SWA's app site. So like MikeF16 said we have to carefully check each app for what the specific airline wants

not counting UPT time is like saying you can't count any civilian time while training before actually taking your PPL check ride.....

TY for this, I didn't notice that in the Q&A section, bought me around another 400 hours on my AA application.

*shrug*
Airlines get to make the rules we get to follow them. BTW, just as you said, you can't count any time prior to your PPL on the SWA application. If you happen to be competing with me though, I'll be more than happy for you to tell the airlines how dumb their application procedures are...

Oh yea that's right, and DTW, but that I don't know a whole lot. I have a friend who's a captain there in ACY, and a friend who's an FO in FLL. Both love the day turns that get you home every night if you live in base (they do). Right now, the airline is growing like gangbusters, pretty much every FO on property now will be a captain in 2-3 years. Ive had my app in with them for a while (applying is really easy and takes only a few minutes, and if they like you, they send you a "long app"), but I think they wont even talk to you without meeting them at a job fair.

Im confused... those guidelines DO allow you to include UPT hours as SIC time, since its considered Dual/Student. Which airlines do not allow you to log UPT? Pretty sure every airline on airlineapps and AA, SWA, Fedex, and UPS do. So who doesn't?

actually it doesn't say that anywhere......

all it says:

Sorry, I'm not smart enough to quote quoted text...

"2 PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot in Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered. "

The very 1st sentence says sole manipulator of controls does not imply PIC for their application, it could be a little confusing if this applies to all applicants or just mil. The 2nd sentence then gets specific to military personnel where there is absolutely no gray area. For me it was <30 hours so not worth arguing over. Listen, this debate is fruitless -- I can fill out my application and you can fill out yours. SWA is renowned for confronting people on their log book. If you feel you can justify what you put down on the application in the interview process then go ahead and do it.