Airline Pilot Central Forums - To VSP or not to VSP?

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- - To VSP or not to VSP? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/79486-vsp-not-vsp.html)

FWIW I logged all UPT time as Dual and for others that don't consider dual I logged it as SIC. Seems straightforward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeF16 (Post 1571105)

Sorry, I'm not smart enough to quote quoted text...

"2 PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot in Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered. "

The very 1st sentence says sole manipulator of controls does not imply PIC for their application, it could be a little confusing if this applies to all applicants or just mil. The 2nd sentence then gets specific to military personnel where there is absolutely no gray area. For me it was <30 hours so not worth arguing over. Listen, this debate is fruitless -- I can fill out my application and you can fill out yours. SWA is renowned for confronting people on their log book. If you feel you can justify what you put down on the application in the interview process then go ahead and do it.

no one is saying count your UPT time as PIC, all that paragraph does is clarify PIC...so I still don't understand what you are saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetnfast (Post 1571122)

FWIW I logged all UPT time as Dual and for others that don't consider dual I logged it as SIC. Seems straightforward.

Shack!

Plenty of friends have been hired by DAL/UAL/FedEx/SWA, that used this same method. UPT time is still time in the air so, at the very least, should count for total time. Most even counted their solo time in UPT as PIC, gasp!

Quote:

Originally Posted by crewdawg (Post 1571212)

Like crewdawg said, solo time in UPT can be counted as PIC. Someone had to be PIC of those flights!

I think my IP signed for jet on my first Tweet solo. I carried his wings with me so I think he gets PIC for that one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris99 (Post 1571274)

Like crewdawg said, solo time in UPT can be counted as PIC. Someone had to be PIC of those flights!

Here's my guide to logging time, that has never given me problems. This is the most conservative way to log mil time IMO:

1)if you signed for it, you are PIC. If you were solo in UPT you are obviously PIC

2)check your SARMS printout, there's no way to track when you were the PIC (when you were coded as MP or above) so its all honor system. I think the airlines recognize that once you're an MP, you can log 90+% your time thereafter as PIC.

3)PRI/SEC time don't exist in the FAA's mind. Use total duration of the flight, you were either PIC for the duration, or you weren't. (IP time is different, but as an IP, you are PIC for the duration, and possibly IP for less than duration). If you were SIC on that flight as a Copilot coded or FP coded, see #4

4) OTHER time- If you really want the easy way to defend your logbook, take ALL of your OTHER time prior to AC upgrade, and throw it out. That's right, take it all out. Then, after AC upgrade, your OTHER time will be PIC time when youre the PIC of the flight, because youre still responsible for the aircraft when youre in the bunk. This is valid for the FAA (When I'm PIC on a 12 hour airline flight, I can only legally be in the seat for 8 hours, but even when i'm on my 4 hour break, im still the PIC of the aircraft).

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunes (Post 1571165)

no one is saying count your UPT time as PIC, all that paragraph does is clarify PIC...so I still don't understand what you are saying.

You are mixing apples and oranges. SWA does not allow UPT time under any circumstances, save solo PIC. AA allows the student time, but they specify to log it as SIC. You are reading from one post where I'm replying to a SWA query but using AA rules.

what is it about UPT time that cant be counted for SWA? What if we already had our PPL's prior to entering UPT? It would then count, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghilis101 (Post 1571748)

what is it about UPT time that cant be counted for SWA? What if we already had our PPL's prior to entering UPT? It would then count, right?

Good point. I hadn't thought of MIL hours logged after having a PPL. In the FAA world, I don't know how those would be different than Dual Received working on an instrument ticket after getting a PPL, unless SWA doesn't allow using any Dual Received.

MikeF16 - are you basing the UPT hours counting restriction on what's been cut and pasted a few times above or on something on the actual application page (haven't seen it)? Based on what's been posted above, seems pretty clear to me that they are only clarifying counting MIL PIC time, not total time. Again, I haven't seen the application or how they specify inputing hours there, only what I've read on the SWA page.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeF16 (Post 1571523)

I still don't see why you are saying that...you keep quoting their definition of PIC....which no one is arguing with you about. It doesn't say anywhere that you can't count UPT/student tome with Southwest....if it says that and I'm just missing it, I apologize but I haven't seen that anywhere.