Lessons Learned During App/Interview Process
 

Folks,

Wanted to pass along something I just learned that has been causing some serious stress, and thought maybe we could use this thread to keep the gouge flowing.

Please, no personal attacks, whining, pontificating, or any other b.s. that won't help military dudes get hired by the airline of their choice.

My LL:
I've been frustrated trying to figure out why my flight times do not match up between what I've been calculating them as and what the AirlineApps total is. I've borrowed every bro's Excel spreadsheet-o-justice I can find and they still do not match.

Here's what I learned today: the AirlineApps program automatically adds on the airline-specific military-to-civilian conversion factor. Some airlines use 0.3 per military sortie, some use 0.2, etc.

So when you target your app to a specific company, the program makes those additions (it uses the type aircraft that you specify, everything that is "military" gets the conversion added on based upon the number of sorties you put).

I may be the only one who didn't get that figured out, but wanted to pass it along in case anyone else is confused.

Also, the specifics of how airlines count different types of flying times, including the FAR definitions, is on the page that has the "Instructions" and red stop sign symbol in the upper right corner of the "My Flight Time, By Aircraft" page.

I thought pilot credentials (SWA and AA) was even more confusing than airline apps because PIC doesn't automatically include IP time and it's not super clear how to include student/dual time.

When interviewing I just took my AF flying summary and unconverted numbers/resume and provided my spreadsheet and 1 page explanation of how I calculated it. No questions on anything.

Not trying to be an a-hole, but it spells that out pretty clearly in the instructions. There are a lot of little details in the instructions and I hear Delta is a big stickler for that stuff.

Be careful of spreadsheets offered by others. Some of those are airline specific especially if it's from a SWA guy. SWA has you calculate a lot of spurious stuff for your interview, from what I hear. The only thing I really used a spreadsheet for was converting my primary time to PIC and I built that myself.


Edit:

I just re-read your second paragraph, hopefully this didn't come across as in those categories...

Actually, it kinda does come across like that. I wouldn't have posted if I didn't think others would benefit. YOU might have gotten the clue the first time and been all over it, but many of us are working 12+hour days, deployed, etc., and haven't been through this process before.

I know that it spells things out pretty clearly in the instructions, but I, and several others, weren't aware that the Instruction page was there.

^^^^

Fair point,

that's why I added the comment at the end, I debated deleting but figured the rest of my post was somewhat helpful.

Thanks for that PRS Guitars, that's good gouge

Some other tips:
Emerald Coast Interviewing Prep, they are amazingly good at prepping military dudes for airline interviews. Check them out, trust me.

I saw the following books on MANY posts in many different threads, got them, have used them extensively, they pretty much teach everything I'm seeing in all the interview gouges, they might help you as well:
"Everything explained for the professional pilot" by Richie Lengel
"The turbine pilot's flight manual (third edition)" by Gregory Brown & Mark Holt
Jeppesen Instrument Procedures Guide
"Airline Transport Pilot Oral Exam Guide" by Michael Hayes
"Airline Pilot Interviews" by Irv Jasinski

Thanks for the point out.

If you haven't heard, Southwest just opened up a hiring window for pilots. Go to swa.pilotcredentials.com, establish an account, and get your apps in!!

Ladies,
Just got back from an interview at SkyWest. If you're a military dude and want some gouge PM me.

Couple of things for guys coming out and getting ready to interview.

Emerald Coast or some other prep. Do it. Just do it, genius. No buts.

Your suit. Try it on. Try to be comfortable. A lot of you probably haven't worn a civilian suit in awhile. You may even need to hit the salad bar a little more tubby.

The job interview begins when you leave your house and doesn't end until you get home. Keep your game face on because you're never entirely sure who you are talking to. Don't **** off or talk down to people. Be positive. Avoid negative people.

Clean up your language. The f-bombs may go down in front of the corn machine with the bros....not so much with someone from HR at your target company.

Technical stuff. Know your jet....they may surprise you with questions about it. Checkride resistance procedures in full effect. Answer questions completely but never miss an opportunity to shut up or to ask a counter question to get them talking...they are human after all.

Network. The definition of networking is taking advantage of personal relationships to make sh!t happen. I would humbly submit to you that if you're at the 10 year point of your career and CAN'T pick up the phone and get someone on your side, you probably have wasted the last decade of your life.

That's it off the top of my head. YMMV. Good luck to all of you. It is an insane ride that you're about to begin.

Great post! Here's what I just put on the airlineinterviews.com website for SkyWest:
As everyone else says on here, the gouge is pretty good. We had 6 dudes interview, at least 3 and maybe 5 of us did not complete the interview due to poor performance in the simulator.
Travelling to the interview: they will set up the travel for you, you have to go online and pick the flights, they will confirm them and send you the paperwork to use at the check-in counter. Many of the guys I interviewed with didn't fly in until late the night before - in my opinion a bad idea. I'd strongly recommend choosing a flight that will get you into SLC around lunchtime/early afternoon. That way you can get final prep (get your suit squared away, final review for test/tech interview, etc). Those who got in late were behind the power curve and it showed.
If you don't read and follow the instructions exactly as they are sent to you via the e-mail, they won't let you even start. Attention to detail, ability to follow simple instructions, etc. If you can't do this, maybe you shouldn't be trying to get a job where you're responsible for hundreds of lives.
One thing that really confused me - most of the guys that I interviewed with had done little prep. They were unaware of how to handle the CRM scenarios, hadn't done any simulator prep (guys were not happy with the simulator, but SkyWest sends you a PowerPoint thing that shows the cockpit layout, how to use the avionics, etc.), had not done any prep on how to do the "interview" part of the interview.
Here's what I would strongly recommend you do to prep:

• Read all the gouge you find on here, and STUDY what they tell you to study!
• Do a frickin simulator prep!!!! 3 guys within 30 minutes sent packing due to simulator failures. PAY FOR A FEW HOURS IN A FRASCA 142 SIMULATOR!!
• Read and memorize "The turbine pilots manual," and the FARs.
• Completely understand Jeppesen. I mean EVERYTHING. Every single symbol on the low charts, approach plates, high charts, EVERYTHING!
• Know EVERYTHING about every TAF and METAR symbol, meaning, etc.
• Understand turbine engines completely, high speed aerodynamics completely, large aircraft systems completely
• Do an interview prep course so you know how to handle the CRM exercise and the "interview" part.
• Bring your required paperwork in to them in a binder. This is a PROFESSIONAL job interview, and throwing a stack of rumpled up and stained paperwork at them in no particular order, forcing them to have to dig through this mess to find what they need is UNPROFESSIONAL and puts you behind the power curve before you even start

Here's the deal with SkyWest: they are not hiring warm bodies to fill seats. They are not desperate, they don't offer signing bonuses, they will cancel flights before hiring unprofessional/uncapable pilots. They are right up front about that at the start of the interview. They also make it quite clear that you have the job walking in the door, it's yours to lose. The guys who lost it (they were gone before lunch) had not prepped, had not done a simulator, didn't study the gouge, weren't aware of everything that was going to happen during the interview. It's real simple, if you want a job as a professional pilot, BE A PROFESSIONAL PILOT! Just wearing epaulets and being an instructor at a Part 141 school doesn't mean squat in that environment. If you want to be in the big leagues, YOU need to step up your game.

if at the SWA interview the nice lady says "please take a seat over there", do as instructed. If you sit in another chair, like a buddy of mine, you failed that part of the interview.

This sounds 100x harder than my UAL interview.

LOL! It seems so. Given how our brains are wired I couldn't allow myself to just show up and say "here's 4,600 hours of fighter time, hire me." And I'm glad I didn't. I think it's because the guys they are interviewing are mostly the civilian flight school CFI dudes who have no exposure to this type of flying and environment, so they need/want to screen hard so they end up with good dudes.

I knew as soon as I saw the suits some of my interview-mates were wearing, and the stack of papers they slapped down on the table, what kind of struggle it must be for a regional airline to get professional pilots. I actually felt kind of bad for the SkyWest guys who interviewed us.

Not so the day I interviewed at UAL. Every guy at least looked like he was trying. Of the 11 other new hires in my class they were all super guys and pilots...to a man. Let the morons weed themselves out.

Skywest..."big leagues", now that is some funny sh!t.

That was targeted towards the Part 141 dudes who might accidentally read that before the interview! Trust me, I get it! But since I haven't flown since '06, you gotta do what you gotta do

All good advice, and it can't be emphasized enough;

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mi...11-update.html

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hi...e-corners.html

Interviewed in Feb at DAL with an all mil interviewee group. All hired, great guys, all clearly read up on interview prep (emerald coast and study gouge) and manners/presentation. Red ties.. The cafeteria had good food and they are hiring loads of young FA's concurrently. Overall very positive experience.

Regarding the airline apps, received emails requesting more info on education and work history from DAL. I needed to add High School GPA, and took my work history all the way through relevant jobs in High school. Seemed a bit excessive but I referred to those HS/college jobs during the interview. Received the invite email the following week.

Flt hours did not seem to be scrutinized beyond basic review of logbook, which occurred behind the scenes. They have probably about 1 hr to review all your stuff it seems. Like most people, I spent many neurotic hours at home pouring over everything in advance. Just make sure all the numbers are the same between airline apps (don't worry about conversion), resume, logbook etc.

The interview did not seem scary or hard like the previous posted Skywest experience, and no mind games like the Southwest secretary apparently. Take off your jacket when offered if you think you'd be more comfortable. I kept mine on, just smile and be polite throughout. Interview was in a small room with 2 CA's and 1 HR guy. Be sure to hit the safety, conservative, team work, humble/complimentary, protect-the-company themes in your stories. If there's a ding in your record somewhere, polish that turd! Don't make excuses, hit the lessons learned and how it helped you succeed later (easy for IPs). All super friendly and happy to have you there. Mr Kraby (hiring manager) is a nice guy.

Long wait for upcoming training dates but well worth it for me!

I don't know anyone that knows all of this. Memorize all of the FARs? Everything about Jeppesen? METARs and TAFs? Yeah, I had to look up some METAR codes yesterday as a matter of fact. And what in the world is the Turbine Pilot's Manual and how does one memorize it? Is this all legit?

Testing at DAL had probably 1-3 FAR questions and 1-2 airport markings or lighting. Not too many calculation questions, although the gouge floating around has a zillion examples. Handful on turbine parts, temps etc. A lot on generic aero stuff (lift, drag, aoa, airspeed concepts, effects of alt, CG).

I read the Turbine pilot manual. Hits a few subjects that may be good review/introduction for a mil pilot.

I did no sim prep, no job fairs, got called by UAL, and hired on my FIRST DAY of terminal leave. I hate to come across this way, but it's all timing. Sure, do that crap, but in the end it's all timing. Just be a good dude and a good pilot. The HR and CAs in the interview will be able to figure that out. It's all that matters whether you BS the board or not.

Deuce, yes, this is actually true for SkyWest. That's what all the gouge tells you they will ask, both in the test and in the technical portion of the interview, and it was true for me.

We spent roughly 10 minutes on TAFs/METARs, about 10 minutes on Jeppessen (low chart, approach plates), 20 minutes on turbine engines/electrical systems/aerodynamics/weather, and then another 15ish minutes on FARs, drawing runways/lighting systems, everything there is to know about 91.175. "Here's a blank piece of paper, draw the electrical system of the F-16, in as much detail as you can." Etc.

I was sweating when it was over. Plus, the test covered all that stuff as well. NONE of the questions about TAF/METAR and Jepp's were the simple stuff - they were all the things that you and I would have to no-kidding look up in the real world. There were several that I just didn't know.

I know that it's different for the majors, but that's how they do it at SkyWest - not sure if they do that at any other regionals or not.

I'm pretty sure I haven't had a tougher ground eval since the mid-80's!

Well that won't get you very far in the USN/USMC tactical world then.
Starting in T-2Cs the IP told you that if you could touch it from the cockpit you didn't need to know it and you certainly weren't going to be fixing it.
We had enough with the standard NATOPS and the plethra of TACMANs to worry about without tracing a spark across a wire diagram.

John - I'm also assuming you used this example as a technical question about a plane that you are coming from, or currently in, as after a few months I'd forgotten whatever I did manage to store in the back of my brain about my fleet aircraft's electrical system!

Memorize the FARs :D That is like memorizing the Tax Codes.
You know they even teach lawyers HOW to look things up/research because trying to memorize stuff just leads to mistakes.

I'll say that I like my current jobs approach better than SkyWest's then. My most recent oral exam was around 5 hours long for my ASIP - but we had the manuals in front of us - both FOM type and technical type for the flight inspection. they tell you NOT to try and memorize all of the information. You'll see techs in the back after 10-15+ years on the job still looking up tolerances and they all have the book open and available to them during an inspection (of course we do have a lot of exceptions to work out too)

Ladies,

I'm just telling ya what I had to go through and how it was. I've been a fighter pilot since before you children were in diapers, so spare me the outcry about how much bs their process is. It is what it is.

Note the title of this thread - we're passing gouge so we can all get hired. I didn't tell them how to run their interview process, I'm simply passing along what I learned. I'm not making this stuff up you monkeys

Sounds like a rough day going through that process at Skywest! Did they do that all in one day?

Yep, one day. They tell you to plan on being there from 0800 - 1700. Two of us were cleared off not too long after lunch, 3 guys got booted before lunch, and the one "maybe" got the full meal deal.

The really rough part was the studying and prep - if you can power through all that then you're just regurgitating everything they want you to know. They were gentlemen about it, they weren't Hitler Youth, but you need to go in there prepared. In fact, now that I think about it, they were actually quite nice to me as a military guy - they seemed to give great respect for the military

lol@ "draw the electrical system". That's the most ridiculous thing that goes on during oral checkrides IMO. I'll never ask anyone to do it. If someone wants to do it to prove they know the system, then go for it, but it's a ridiculous test and most people often don't understand the theories behind the components, just some wire diagram and (usually wrong) direction of current flow (which doesn't really flow anyways). Honestly, my opinion of that airline drops when I hear that's one of the interview "questions".

So, did you get the job?

Do whatever your feel will prepare you for success. No airline prep but had much experience interviewing in general. Most of my prep was in studying two prep books, "Everything Explained..." and "Airline Pilot Technical Interview". Echo - game face on at all times, even with hotel staff and shuttle drivers. Be professional but most importantly be honest. Update your resume at least every two weeks and also include all your other successes outside of flying (at least for Airline Aps). 2 for 2 in 10 months, AAWW & DAL. Currently waiting in pool for DAL. Good luck!

They don't tell you on the spot (at least at SkyWest anyways), but were giving me winning comms. I would be surprised if they didn't offer me the job. They said we'll let you know in 2 weeks

Also, the call for an interview will come at the most unexpected time. It was a day prior to my check ride at a national that I got the call for my US Airways interview. Interviewed 5 days later, offered a class a week after that. Lesson - don't stop preparing for the interview at the company you really want until you get the job there.

Some admin advice for the job seeker.

Prep your wife/family for the pay cut and lifestyle change. We started discussing this about a year and a half out. I emphasized that it would be a crappy first year and we'd have to make financial cut backs. I've been very fortunate to have a very supportive wife. She understands that the sacrifices have a potential great payoff in just a few years.

I wish I would have actually made those financial cuts a year out, but we waited until I got the job offer (about a month out). We cut back on going out to eat from 3 to 4 times a week to once a month, got rid of cable, stopped buying magazines, Starbucks, etc. I don't buy anything in an airport anymore. These changes have actually allowed us to not only survive on the pay cut, but actually save a decent amount of money. I'm amazed at how much we wasted before.

If you have a car payment, I highly recommend selling it and buying a cheaper used vehicle with cash. If you plan to buy a house in the next two years, I'd recommend buying it now while you actually will qualify for it.



Be prepared to have some buyers remorse. Getting the call is awesome, You'll be excited about indoc and training, OE is a new learning experience...then reality hits.

Commuting to sit reserve, riding buses through crappy parts of town to get to a crashpad or wherever you're staying, extremely boring flying, an anemic pay check. I started questioning my decision, thinking I'd made a big mistake. Fortunately, I ran into other military guys that said they felt the same way and that it will get better. It helped to know that this was a normal feeling. I told myself that I will give it at least 2 years before moving on to another industry. That alone made me start to like the job more right away, just the fact that I'm not trapped.

Not complaining or saying I'm burned out; just trying to prepare you, as I was not expecting to feel that way at all...YMMV

Great advice/insight PRS--Thanks for the heads-up!

The pay cut will come, either now, or later. Whether you bail at 7-10 years, 14 years (my jump off point), or after you retire, it takes 2-3 years to get back to where you were. That alone paralyzes many folks from making the jump. Guys hired in 2005 at SWA or FedEx are now pulling down 150-200k per year, and guys hired 2000-2002 are likely doing more than that. You gotta move sometime….when are you going to go?

The easiest way to offset the income loss if you bail before 20 years is to be in the ANG/AFRES. After 20? Well….side job or just suck it up. Part of having the courage to make this move is understanding the upside potential. You can make a good living at year 2-3 at the legacies. Its not overnight, but the years seem to go by for me quicker and quicker and once you cross that first year pay drop life gets a lot better. New hire life is not representative of airline life…its a transition period. Even if you go back on reserve in a few years as a junior commuting captains, you will A) be making more money and B) be a lot more familiar with the business, so this exercise in "suck" is temporary.

Part of the way I have always approached this lifestyle is realizing that just because everyone else does it one way doesn't mean you have to do it the same way. Most of my fighter alum at my company live in a crashpad with a bunch of other guys, and have a fraternity like atmosphere. I like folks, enjoy socializing, but at heart am an only child who wants a certain amount of space and autonomy. I never did the C-pad thing, but instead have used hotels when required. Many hotels offer a reasonable crew rate. If there are an bases near by your domicile, staying in the Q and working out on base and enjoy the facilities might be an option. In MEM with FedEx, I would stay at the Millington VOQ on weekends and enjoy the pool and gym, and during the week catch the specials at the resorts in Tunica for 25-40 a night. At the end of the month I doubt I was paying that much more than a guy sharing a stinky room with 2-3 beds, and….believe it or not….I ENJOYED my time on reserve/training/between trips. Empty nester? Got a good sitter? Get your wife out the house and let her crash a day or two with you in the hotel. Pretend you are starving newlyweds again and make reserve a getaway instead of a hassle. Its a mindset. Not every town will allow what I did, but there are probably angles out there worth exploring. What's an extra $100-$200 a month if it gets you your own room vice a shared room? Try not to make reserve suck, and you might have a good time. Sleeping in a room with 3 other dudes in the ghetto is not conducive to good mental health. Get a decent place, make it "fun", and enjoy having a little down time to pursue your own interests.

If you are getting out--this whole transition should not be a shock. You KNOW a pay cut is coming. Set aside some cash, and be ready to spend it when required. For some its that spending that is the hard part. To make money now, you have to be able to work. Taking care of the machinery (that's you) is just a good investment. It won't be long until you no longer need that crashpad or airport car anymore. Expenses in this industry are front loaded--the guy who can afford the nice place to stay or good car probably won't use it that much once he gets some seniority. On the other hand, you are flying the worst schedules and dealing with the most hassles….so smooth out the pain with an upfront investment to make your life easier. It gets better as time goes by.

Another little wrinkle you may not consider is you don't need as much CAR in your life since you aren't driving to/from the base every day. I've averaged about 10k a year on my truck, compared to about 20-25k year when I drove to base every day. My gas, tire, and mx costs are much less than I used to spend a decade ago. Of course, with 2 kids now driving those savings have long been spent elsewhere, but in the short term you probably won't be driving as much.

Again…get data points from others that have made the transition. But there is no rule saying that you to do it exactly like your squadron-mates did when they got hired. I have guys who have NEVER taken their wives on a trip or done a night of reserve. My wife goes on about 6-8 trips a year at least and has been to Memphis a few times with me. Pull the family into the mix and let them enjoy some of the perks of the job, and also see that its not just 5 star hotels, limos, and flight attendants when you are out on the road. If they buy-in, it makes everything a lot more fun for everyone.

Really, the pay cut isn't that massive as a retiree. As an O-4, no bonus, with flight pay, I make around 95K. Now I am retiring with full health care and bennies. I will net around 40 a year from uncle for retiree pay and, if I play my cards right and am lucky with timing, will overlap about 4 months of getting paid full AD pay plus first year airline pay. All in all, it is pretty much a wash and I may even come out ahead. If I am able to pick up extra trips, that is money in the bank.
The key is planning and setting expectations. It took a few months to get my wife on board, but once she understood the risks and the rewards, she was committed. She knows it may mean less Starbucks next year and the kids may not go to camp or on a vacation this summer, but in 3 years, we will most certainly be making up for it. Telling her that she can fly to see her sister whenever she wants helps too!

If there is anything to be gleaned from my ranting, it is this:
Get your spouse on board. Show them the long term rewards vs the short term pain.
Manage your expectations. You and the family both need to know there are going to be sacrifices, both in pay and QOL.

Thanks Albie and E6b...hearing this stuff from guys that have been through it calms the nerves of us making the transition.

Here is something else you might want to keep an eye on as you leave Active Duty. The tax withheld from your retired pay will assume that it is your only income and may not be enough to cover your actual taxes due in April. You may also have some issues with state income taxes that you did not have while active. It is a whole new world with lots of new things to get under control. Best of luck. It is a great journey from active duty to airline.

Dude I'm not worthy!