ANG and Major Airlines
04-16-2014, 11:02 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 617
ANG and Major Airlines
Weird question for folks here. I'm civilian background and currently trying to get on with a major. Has anyone ever gotten hired at a major and then applied for a guard position? How do airlines feel about someone taking a couple year military LOA? I'm young enough to do it, just wondering if it's feasible. I always wanted to go the military route but when I was learning to fly I was told I couldn't for medical reasons. Now that I know more about it I know I wouldn't have any problem, so reconsidering but it would sure be nice to get a seniority number at a major first. Crazy idea or something that could work out well?
04-17-2014, 04:04 AM
#2
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Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: 787 FO
Posts: 792
Originally Posted by SVA402
Weird question for folks here. I'm civilian background and currently trying to get on with a major. Has anyone ever gotten hired at a major and then applied for a guard position? How do airlines feel about someone taking a couple year military LOA? I'm young enough to do it, just wondering if it's feasible. I always wanted to go the military route but when I was learning to fly I was told I couldn't for medical reasons. Now that I know more about it I know I wouldn't have any problem, so reconsidering but it would sure be nice to get a seniority number at a major first. Crazy idea or something that could work out well?
04-17-2014, 06:57 AM
#3
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Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Boeing right seat
Posts: 1,541
Originally Posted by SVA402
How do airlines feel about someone taking a couple year military LOA?
Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve > USERRA > What is USERRA
04-17-2014, 08:53 AM
#4
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,228
USERRA is hard to read and understand properly without being intimately familiar with how guard/reserves fund orders, and the underlying federal law. The same guy or gal doing the same job at the same place may have different levels of protection depending on the underlying funding. Suffice to say you would be 100% legally protected in this scenario.
I will say that within the guard/reserve/airline world it is considered to be somewhat bad form to get hired at an airline and then immediately bail for extended active duty. The reason is that your seniority and longevity (ie pay scale) accrues while you're away, so a new hire would basically skip the first year of rock-bottom reserve and low pay and return at a higher pay and relative seniority as though he never left). Note that your probation clock (usually one year) normally only runs while you're actually at work (they want to observe you in action, fair enough).
This is obviously tempting, but if everybody did it, guard/reserves would get a bad name in the airline industry. Most of us don't give a whit about the airline management, but collectively we don't want a bad reputation with hiring boards, or our fellow pilots who have to cover for us when we're gone.
But with that said, it's legal and some people do it...a few actually seek out active-duty orders and are gaming the system, others just get an involuntary mobilization at a bad time and have no real choice. In your case you would have a very good excuse...you absolutely DO NOT want to delay your civilian career progression just because you might (or might not) go on mil leave. Also you don't want to miss an opportunity to get a military flying slot. If you can get hired by a major, do it. If you then need to go on mil leave, do it.
I will say that within the guard/reserve/airline world it is considered to be somewhat bad form to get hired at an airline and then immediately bail for extended active duty. The reason is that your seniority and longevity (ie pay scale) accrues while you're away, so a new hire would basically skip the first year of rock-bottom reserve and low pay and return at a higher pay and relative seniority as though he never left). Note that your probation clock (usually one year) normally only runs while you're actually at work (they want to observe you in action, fair enough).
This is obviously tempting, but if everybody did it, guard/reserves would get a bad name in the airline industry. Most of us don't give a whit about the airline management, but collectively we don't want a bad reputation with hiring boards, or our fellow pilots who have to cover for us when we're gone.
But with that said, it's legal and some people do it...a few actually seek out active-duty orders and are gaming the system, others just get an involuntary mobilization at a bad time and have no real choice. In your case you would have a very good excuse...you absolutely DO NOT want to delay your civilian career progression just because you might (or might not) go on mil leave. Also you don't want to miss an opportunity to get a military flying slot. If you can get hired by a major, do it. If you then need to go on mil leave, do it.
04-17-2014, 11:43 AM
#5
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 777 FO
Posts: 931
Originally Posted by rickair7777
USERRA is hard to read and understand properly without being intimately familiar with how guard/reserves fund orders, and the underlying federal law. The same guy or gal doing the same job at the same place may have different levels of protection depending on the underlying funding. Suffice to say you would be 100% legally protected in this scenario.
I will say that within the guard/reserve/airline world it is considered to be somewhat bad form to get hired at an airline and then immediately bail for extended active duty. The reason is that your seniority and longevity (ie pay scale) accrues while you're away, so a new hire would basically skip the first year of rock-bottom reserve and low pay and return at a higher pay and relative seniority as though he never left). Note that your probation clock (usually one year) normally only runs while you're actually at work (they want to observe you in action, fair enough).
This is obviously tempting, but if everybody did it, guard/reserves would get a bad name in the airline industry. Most of us don't give a whit about the airline management, but collectively we don't want a bad reputation with hiring boards, or our fellow pilots who have to cover for us when we're gone.
But with that said, it's legal and some people do it...a few actually seek out active-duty orders and are gaming the system, others just get an involuntary mobilization at a bad time and have no real choice. In your case you would have a very good excuse...you absolutely DO NOT want to delay your civilian career progression just because you might (or might not) go on mil leave. Also you don't want to miss an opportunity to get a military flying slot. If you can get hired by a major, do it. If you then need to go on mil leave, do it.
I will say that within the guard/reserve/airline world it is considered to be somewhat bad form to get hired at an airline and then immediately bail for extended active duty. The reason is that your seniority and longevity (ie pay scale) accrues while you're away, so a new hire would basically skip the first year of rock-bottom reserve and low pay and return at a higher pay and relative seniority as though he never left). Note that your probation clock (usually one year) normally only runs while you're actually at work (they want to observe you in action, fair enough).
This is obviously tempting, but if everybody did it, guard/reserves would get a bad name in the airline industry. Most of us don't give a whit about the airline management, but collectively we don't want a bad reputation with hiring boards, or our fellow pilots who have to cover for us when we're gone.
But with that said, it's legal and some people do it...a few actually seek out active-duty orders and are gaming the system, others just get an involuntary mobilization at a bad time and have no real choice. In your case you would have a very good excuse...you absolutely DO NOT want to delay your civilian career progression just because you might (or might not) go on mil leave. Also you don't want to miss an opportunity to get a military flying slot. If you can get hired by a major, do it. If you then need to go on mil leave, do it.
04-17-2014, 01:35 PM
#6
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Joined APC: Sep 2012
Position: Babysitter
Posts: 975
Originally Posted by Deuce130
I would disagree that actively seeking out opportunities for active duty orders is gaming the system. It happens more often than involuntary orders.
04-17-2014, 01:59 PM
#7
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 224
War and Duece:
I disagree. Seeking orders is gaming the system. "The airlines know what they are getting by hiring a Guard/Reservist"--- Yes! They are getting someone who won't game the system. Sure, 1% will game the system and maybe not poison the well for future G/R'ists. But if 20%, or 40% or 60%? did, why would Management hire another G/R'ist? By gaming the system you are endangering the hiring of your buds in the squadron.
If they cared one iota about you paying your bills, they would pay you more. Don't like the deal, don't apply. But don't apply, screw the Company, and put them off hiring other Guard/Reservists.....
I disagree. Seeking orders is gaming the system. "The airlines know what they are getting by hiring a Guard/Reservist"--- Yes! They are getting someone who won't game the system. Sure, 1% will game the system and maybe not poison the well for future G/R'ists. But if 20%, or 40% or 60%? did, why would Management hire another G/R'ist? By gaming the system you are endangering the hiring of your buds in the squadron.
If they cared one iota about you paying your bills, they would pay you more. Don't like the deal, don't apply. But don't apply, screw the Company, and put them off hiring other Guard/Reservists.....
04-17-2014, 02:21 PM
#8
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Joined APC: Sep 2012
Position: Babysitter
Posts: 975
Originally Posted by RogAir
War and Duece:
I disagree. Seeking orders is gaming the system. "The airlines know what they are getting by hiring a Guard/Reservist"--- Yes! They are getting someone who won't game the system. Sure, 1% will game the system and maybe not poison the well for future G/R'ists. But if 20%, or 40% or 60%? did, why would Management hire another G/R'ist? By gaming the system you are endangering the hiring of your buds in the squadron.
If they cared one iota about you paying your bills, they would pay you more. Don't like the deal, don't apply. But don't apply, screw the Company, and put them off hiring other Guard/Reservists.....
I disagree. Seeking orders is gaming the system. "The airlines know what they are getting by hiring a Guard/Reservist"--- Yes! They are getting someone who won't game the system. Sure, 1% will game the system and maybe not poison the well for future G/R'ists. But if 20%, or 40% or 60%? did, why would Management hire another G/R'ist? By gaming the system you are endangering the hiring of your buds in the squadron.
If they cared one iota about you paying your bills, they would pay you more. Don't like the deal, don't apply. But don't apply, screw the Company, and put them off hiring other Guard/Reservists.....
04-17-2014, 02:39 PM
#9
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Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
When I was at Tyndall I was the senior TG, responsible for overseeing the other TGs. I had a SWA CP hassling a guy for dropping more than the typical one trip per month. I called him and advised him that I needed IPs with NVG quals, SEFE experience, and a few other letter of X quals and that his boy was one of only a few that fit the bill. He could either work with us here or there, and the pilot would do all he could to be available….or….I could just start putting him on 30/60/90 day orders here or there to make sure we could get our training done. Needless to say, suddenly mil leaving 2 trips a month wasn't such a bad plan.
Two FedEx pilots that I know of have been killed in fighter mishaps. Pilots need to do whatever it takes to stay current, sharp, and lethal in combat to serve their country. There is no requirement to put yourself at risk because you don't' want to "game the system". Flying combat is not a game. Do what you need to do to be ready. Try your best to serve two (or three if you count family) masters, but avoid winning the SGLI lottery at all costs. If you need to "seek out" orders to get the sorties/training you need to be good at what you do--then
by all means do it.
Two FedEx pilots that I know of have been killed in fighter mishaps. Pilots need to do whatever it takes to stay current, sharp, and lethal in combat to serve their country. There is no requirement to put yourself at risk because you don't' want to "game the system". Flying combat is not a game. Do what you need to do to be ready. Try your best to serve two (or three if you count family) masters, but avoid winning the SGLI lottery at all costs. If you need to "seek out" orders to get the sorties/training you need to be good at what you do--then
by all means do it.
04-17-2014, 10:22 PM
#10
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 224
The "gaming" I'm talking about are the guys who get hired, go through initial training, and then the day after their IOE, drop 2 year mil leave orders on the Company. Legal? Sure. Give the Company second thoughts about hiring another Reservist? Absolutely.
Dropping ML for a week, or a month is perfectly fine. You have to stay current, go to upgrade school, PME, etc. it usually doesn't even mean you going noncurrent at the airline.
Dropping ML for a week, or a month is perfectly fine. You have to stay current, go to upgrade school, PME, etc. it usually doesn't even mean you going noncurrent at the airline.
