Airline Pilot Central Forums - Restricted ATP for NFOs?

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Here it is from FAA order 8900.1:

Quote:

B. Restricted Privileges ATP Certificate. A holder of a restricted privileges ATP certificate may serve as a second in command (SIC) in part 121 operations with the exception of flag or supplemental operations in part 121 requiring three or more pilots. All applicants for a restricted privileges ATP certificate must be at least 21 years old and have a minimum of 200 hours of cross-country flight time. The following applicants are eligible for a restricted privileges ATP certificate:

1) Military-Trained. In accordance with § 61.160(a), a U.S. military pilot or former U.S. military pilot, who has not been removed from flying status for lack of proficiency or because of a disciplinary action involving aircraft operations, may apply for an ATP certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an ATP certificate concurrently with an airplane type rating with a minimum of 750 hours of total time as a pilot, if the pilot presents:

a) Eligibility requirements listed in § 61.153;

b) Aeronautical knowledge requirements listed in § 61.155;

c) Aeronautical experience requirements listed in § 61.160;

d) An official Form DD-214 (Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty) indicating that the person was honorably discharged from the U.S. Armed Forces or an official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the pilot is currently serving in the U.S. Armed Forces; and

e) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the person graduated from a U.S. Armed Forces undergraduate pilot training school and received a rating qualification as a military pilot.

Whether or not you can log it becomes inconsequential, you can't apply for a restricted because you can't meet the 160 requirement of graduating from a US armed forces undergraduate pilot school. It shouldn't be log-able time because you never went through a school to qualify you in that aircraft as an NFO, as happens in the civilian world. I almost went the NFO route and had my paper work in when I got a call at the last minute for a civilian job. I had a full expectation that it wasn't a "flying job".

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes (Post 1717522)

The original question from this thread referenced 61.160.

Ooops... started reading to far down the thread...

Sorry huggy, I really thought you were joking, So this is what it takes to get your ATP, as far as "loggable" time, in the first part it refers to pilot time only, in different capacities, then it says if your a commercial pilot you may use F.E. Time towards total time, in not so many words, but the key is it says aircraft must be certificated under the faa with that crew position, and that's really it,
The key is, does the -1/ ops spec require the crew position, and is it a pilot/ f.e.
Sorry navs/loads...... But that's just my interpretation.... And also it's your log book, you can log whatever you want, just be ready to justify it!

(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or

(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.

(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time—

(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane’s flight manual or type certificate;

(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;

(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and

(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

(3) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time—

(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces’ flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;

(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and

(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

Just curious, but what would you do with a USAF pilot who had not gone to "a military undergraduate pilot school"? He would be outta luck? There were a few including a guy named Stewart - as in Brigadier General James Stewart. At the start of WWII he already had his civilian licenses so the War Department sent him to Instructor Pilots School and he went on from there to be one of the true heroes of the war.

Hasn't been done since.....

GF

No but in an oblique way it points out the idiocy of saying a certificated pilot is not able to log time in a dual control aircraft when he was at the controls just because he is a USAF Navigator or USN Naval Aviator.

This is all a pointless conversation. To answer the OP's question, no special crew time is not pilot time and in no way applicable to ATP minimums.

The only aircraft in USN inventory that have a WSO/NFO are the Superhornet/Growler, E-2, EA-6B and P-3/P-8.

None of those needs the NFO present to take flight, nor does the NFO even have access to flight controls. Hell some of them can't even see out the front. I have more Superhornet time with the back seat empty/solo than I do with a WSO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by F4E Mx (Post 1717957)

That's what it comes down to.

- FAA pilot cert.
- Flying airplane from flight control station.
- Required crewmember per federal government (DoD) procedures.

Seems not unreasonable that he could log some SIC. He doesn't get a CPL, an R-ATP, or log LDGs...just SIC. The regs at face value would allow this because they were not written to exclude this scenario (I'm the FAA didn't think of it when they wrote the regs).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumble (Post 1717999)

It's a purely academic discussion, since it would only apply to folks who already logged it (or didn't log it) in the past.

I cannot conceive of any new aircraft ever entering the inventory which would afford this opportunity.

Forget the SIC thing...
Forget anything about a Restricted ATP...

Can they log time if the pilot on board is an instructor?

Especially in the case where the Pilot has an FAA Instructor certificate...
And the Nav has an FAA PPL or Commercial...
Would you agree the Nav can log "dual"?