Mil to ATP under the new system
 

So I'm one of those guys who never paid attention to the all the folks talking about prepping or being prepared for the transition from mil aviation to commercial. Now that I am considering it, I find I'm behind on understanding the requirements (esp w/ the 2014 changes).

So four questions:

1. I have a private license (since UPT, but never used), about 1300 hrs fixed wing time (including all the ATP reqs [XC, instrument, ME]) and 1400 hrs rotary wing. Does my helo time count towards my 1500 hr ATP requirement?

2. To get from my current state to ATP in hand I'll need to first get my commercial, then the ATP-CTP, then take my ATP and eval? Are there places that can package that all together for me (and if yes, is that smart)?

3. Of the listing of places the FAA has certified for the ATP-CTP, several aren't avail (must be a student to use Embry Riddle) or still awaiting certification. So it seems that after a year of the new rules there are really only 3 places in the US to get the CTP. Are any inherently better than the others?

4. Surfing through these forums, i see a general consensus that I should seek a military friendly ATP program, not to get a free ride, but so the check pilot understands why I don't have a log book, or that all my flights counts as XC, and other issues that many have complained just aren't understood by an evaluator in random city USA. Thoughts?

Thanks to anyone with words of wisdom to offer.

Is there a military aeroclub on or near your current base? They would be a good source of information on where you can take care of the ground requirements.

Also- don't forget the post-911 GI bill as a source to pay for your ATP. (If you haven't transferred it or used it elsewhere). Higher Power Aviation has a program that takes you all the way through a 737 type rating, and they accept the GI Bill. I didn't use their program, but if nothing else it may be a place to start looking.

1. Yes. Read up on the applicable sections of Part 61 to break it down.

2. No. Part 61.73. You qualify for a commercial, instrument rating, and type rating where applicable. You may need to take a written test first - ask your FSDO.
And then, yes: you still need the ATP-CTP course separately for an AMEL ATP.

3. Don't know.

4. I disagree, you should be fine. Study up on what is required, and the rest will fall into place. You've already prepared for enough in your flying career, preparing to take an ATP checkride should be a snap.


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I think your rotary hours count, but you only need 750 as a Mil pilot for the Restricted ATP. As for #2, you can go from no ratings direct to ATP, skipping private, commercial and instrument. I know several. Mil guys who did that and now fly for an airline with an ATP, but can't rent a Cessna on the weekend. I can't speak to #3, but as for a mil friendly evaluator, some guys are worried about having an examiner who's not big picture or, more importantly, taking the evaluatee's limited understanding of a light twin they've never flown before and will never fly again, as a lack of skill or knowledge required to hold an ATP. That's not every mil dude's perspective, but one I've heard a lot.

I know its 750 TT for us Mil. guys but all that 750 doesn't have to be Mil. correct? it can be a combo of Mil. and civi time to get the R-ATP?

Of the 1500 hours, you need 50 MEL and 250 PIC in airplanes. The hello time is fine.

61.153(d)(3) says you can skip the commercial.

There are currently 5 approved stand alone CTP programs. The E-R programs are part of a degree program and Air Wisconsin and Express Jet are in house. While the ABX Air program sounds like an airline, it is really Sporty's Aviation, a pilot shop and flight school in Ohio. I know nothing about any of them.

You're not the first person to do this. Try to find someone in your sqn who's done it or some reservists with feet in both worlds.

Just Fly,
You simply need to take the FAA's Military Competency written test to earn your Commercial Certificate. If you are an instructor you can also take a Military Competency CFI written test and earn your Instructor Certificate. These tests are both very easy to pass with the help of some study aids. I recommend Sheppard Air. They have a great study program and their website will explain exactly what you need to do to get your tickets all the way up through ATP. Many base Education Centers offer the FAA written testing for free. [URL="http://www.sheppardair.com"]


Very few of the CTP courses have been approved by the FAA. I attended ALPAs Pilot Shortage Conference today and they report that the FAA has over 60 applications for companies awaiting the FAAs endorsement. So I don't think you will see many more programs added any time soon. AEROSIM offers an ATP/CTP course and an ATP particle prep course. The ATP/CTP course will run you about $5000 and the practical prep course will add an additional $3800. However their website does not advertise their practical prep course. You'll need to call or email to get the info.

Just curious, why are you leaving the AF? Do you expect to go directly to the Majors or looking for a Regional job? I also heard today that there is a shortage of Helo pilots across the country. Your skills will be very valuable both in and out of the Air Force.

Meet our first ATP CTP student | ExpressJet Airlines

I think you should get your Commercial certificate in hand via doing a written test, as posted earlier. Then, get hired by ExpressJet. They do the course themselves, and you come out an ATP. See link above.

If you're intent on going to straight to the majors, then yeah, you (generally) need the ATP ticket in hand. Perhaps you GI Bill could cover the CTP course somewhere.

Tolpin -- leaving mil at retirement...could do a few more years but the writing is on the wall and I'm in a flying billet now which I don't think I ever will be again. I'd like to go straight to a Major, but I'm prepared to go to a regional if that's what the market has to offer me. My helo time is now 15 years old, so not thinking I can exploit that experience as readily as my fixed-wing time.

All -- Although I'm currently flying, its not much (2-5 sorties a month) and I'm overseas. On a near-term trip to the States I'm thinking of doing my CTP one week then an ATP prep (+ hours) and my check the second week. Is there any good gouge out there on what an ATP check ride consists of (maneuvers and ground eval), and I guess more importantly how "big pic" is that ride? The genesis of my question is am I assuming too much risk trying to bundle all of those events into two weeks, especially since I've not been flying much recently. I know that's a broad questions, but looking for folks feedback.

If you're Instrument current and presently Aircraft Commander qualified in a US military airplane, you can almost certainly handle an ATP checkride in a light piston twin, after a few training rides.

The modern problem is the CTP, that allows you to take the ATP knowledge test. I've no idea how long that course takes. Ask the training provider; I'm sure they have a set schedule/curriculum.

But the ride itself--you can be trained and ready for that in about three days, using a simple aircraft. Try 1-800-ALL-ATPS. They have many locations in the CONUS.

Lots of info in this thread (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mi...practical.html) on where/who to do your ATP practical with. The easiest way to ensure checkride success is to find an instructor/school that has an established, long-standing relationship with a DPE. That way you know there aren't going to be any surprises. Shop around, ask, use the above thread for references in different geo locations. They're out there and they'll ensure you succeed.

As to ground eval gouge, they run the gamut - but if you follow my first piece of advice you'll know exactly what the DPE will ask beforehand. Seriously - any program or instructor worth the $ will set you up for success. For the flight, it's been a while since mine (Feb 2015), but if I remember correctly: Rejected takeoff, normal takeoff, steep turns, stalls, engine failure in flight, Vmc demo (this was only required to remove my CL thrust restriction), precision and non precision approaches, one of which was SSE, one procedure with holding, and normal landings. It's all instruments so expect to maybe fly under a hood for a bit (right...). Again, your IP should go over exactly what's required. Google ATP study guides and you'll find a bunch of gouge from schools across the country.

FWIW, here's my story - 3,000+ fighter hours, last military flight before my current staff tour was in August 2014. Asked around the bro network and found a local ex-mil IP who works closely with a local DPE out of a small flight school. I flew two practice flights separated by about 1 week. Each flight was a slight variation of the other and were the two "standard" profiles the IP knew the DPE used. Was supposed to check one week later but was delayed by weather then maintenance then illness. Did the checkride about 4 weeks after my 2nd flight. I was a bit nervous due to the layoff, but within a few minutes of starting engines I was put very much at ease by the DPE. 1.6 hours later I had my ATP. Now it's just a waiting game for retirement and applications.

I agree wholeheartedly with the above post. If you're a relatively current/qualified military AC with the ATP minimum hours you'll be okay. If you find the right IP and DPE you'll be more than just okay - you'll be all set.

For the CTP, I heard CAE Simulflite in Dallas has a 7 day, $5k-ish course.

As to getting it all done in 2 weeks - you know how flying works. If you don't have a timeline then you'll never have a maintenance or weather issue. If you do then you can guarantee some kind of delays. Seriously, if everything works okay and you get your instructor/DPE gouge ahead of time to study you can do the practical in a weekend no problem. I don't know how mind-numbing the CTP courses are though - you may need a vacation afterwards!

I just got a quote of $6,900 for the CAE SimuFlite course. YGBSM.

Really wish I wasn't lazy back before 2014 on getting the test done.

I'm also looking for the smartest way to accomplish the ATP/CTP as a 3000+ hour Comm/CFI/CFII/MEI with a couple thousand KC-135 hours. And now the FAA thinks I need CRM training?!? There really should be a mil comp program for this!

Best of luck
GameShow

ATP CTP discovery...

I'm a recently retired F/A-18 pilot with over 3000 hrs, and could not for the life of me understand why I'd be required to pay $5000 (plus lodging, etc) to take a week long course covering, weather, etc.

The ATP CTP Course providers are quick to point out that they do NOT prepare you for the ATP written exam. So this seemed to me to be a very big waste of money and oversight by FAA folks that wrote the rule. At a minimum, the rule does not meet the intent when taking into consideration the years of flight training a military pilot has already attained.

So, here is my discovery which was confirmed by the local FSDO:

CFR 61.41 states:

§61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.
(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either—
(i) The United States; or...

In other words, military pilots are not required to take the ATP CTP course in order to take the ATP Written Exam.

Would be interested to hear any counters to this interpretation if there are any.

I posted this in response to another question, but I wanted to reply to yours as well since it's applicable. Would be interested in your thoughts:

ATP CTP discovery...

I'm a recently retired F/A-18 pilot with over 3000 hrs, and could not for the life of me understand why I'd be required to pay $5000 (plus lodging, etc) to take a week long course covering, weather, etc.

The ATP CTP Course providers are quick to point out that they do NOT prepare you for the ATP written exam. So this seemed to me to be a very big waste of money and oversight by FAA folks that wrote the rule. At a minimum, the rule does not meet the intent when taking into consideration the years of flight training a military pilot has already attained.

So, here is my discovery which was confirmed by the local FSDO:

CFR 61.41 states:

§61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.
(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either—
(i) The United States; or...

In other words, military pilots are not required to take the ATP CTP course in order to take the ATP Written Exam.

Would be interested to hear any counters to this interpretation if there are any.

61.156 says you need the ATP CTP completion certificate to take the ATP multiengine written.

i think the bigger question is if you knew you were getting out why didn't you take the written before the rules changed?

He was probably "wasting his time" by triple checking his evasion plan in case he was shot down so he wouldn't be burned alive in a cage.

Just sayin'...

Sometimes taking an FAA exam takes a backseat when you're hanging your skin out there.

And Tunes, you don't get to judge. You haven't earned that right....sorry. You've been drinking starbucks as you stroll through airports. This guy has been putting his ass on the line and killing people. You don't get to judge...sorry.

I'm assuming you know tunes' background?

There was a lot of time to get it done. I managed to do it while on active duty and with a deployment to the stan thrown in. 3 days of studying and a less than 30 minutes one morning to take the test is all it took. I would have much rather given up a weekend to study, or even take leave, or just studied at night and/or during breaks at work, rather than being in this situation. With as much warning (publicity and time) about this as there was, and talk around the squadrons and the internets, there really isn't a valid reason to have not taken it, unless becoming an airline pilot became a goal after 1 August 2014.

I don't. Sorry.

If I insulted another mil guy/gal then I will apologize in advance.

Just trying to throw a bone to the folks overseas who may not have the time to worry about taking an FAA exam because they are more worried about staying alive or helping others stay alive.

If I got Tunes wrong....mea culpa.

(edit: He/She sounded like an RJ guy trying to school Military folks on where their priorities should be. If I got that wrong...again...mea culpa)

All ATP's bought Higher Power to get at their 142 certificate and now they are running an ATP CTP program. $4995 including the written test and Shepard Air's written test prep. Not sure if they are offering some sort of combo with the practical too.

i'm a mil guy that got the ATP before punching from AD......

My bad Tunes, sorry 'bout that.

For any who may be following this thread, here’s the follow up to my original post, broken down into “logical” segments based on my original post.

CTP - If you didn’t take your written prior to 1 Aug 14, then you need to take the CTP. Neither CATS nor Lasergrade will let you take the test with out the CTP certificate. Only about 6 companies are currently authorized by the FAA to administer this program, and several are proprietary to Universities (like Embry), so not a lot of options. Expect to pay $4-7K depending on who you go with.
I went with CAE, high $$$ end of the spectrum. Professional course, long days, meticulously meets the FAA requirements, but don’t expect to learn a lot if you’ve been around the block. Just reciting required FAA topics. It certainly won’t prepare you for the written. 1 full week long. No prep required, sim time is good to refresh the left hand-right hand skills.

Written - Went with Shepherd air. Worth the money, follow the recommended flow of study, get your 90%+ and move along. For me, studying during the night during the CTP, meant 72 hrs or so of final prep after the CTP, was enough to take the written.

ATP - Know what the company you’ve hired is giving you for your money. Does it include ground instruction, extra hours, other? Since the “big change” in ’14, Examiners are under a lot of pressure too. Expect tight availability, a rigorous ground eval (mine was 3.5 hrs) and a fair flight (my experience only).

I squeezed everything into 3 weeks (7 days CTP, 1 week to study for my written and test, plus get my class 1 med done, and 5 days for my 3 flights and a fourth day for my check ride). Def doable, but for mil folks, you need to be on leave in order to get everything done in this time frame.

If you have any questions or want additional details on how I went about this, PM me.

Of note, given an overseas to states plane tix, courses, hotels, rental car, examiner, etc…this is about a $20k approach to knocking this out…yes, that hurt…bad, very bad. Hope it’s worth it.

Having a hard time finding an ATP CTP course that accepts GI Bill. Have one year of post 9-11 left and will have all of my ratings short of atp, so It would be cool to throw that last year of eligibility at the $5000 cost. It seems like it might be a VA thing that doesnt allow it to be used for the certificate course? Anybody actually used it for the atp ctp?

If not, would the smartest use be to pay the atp ctp out of pocket and use at last year for the practical, or am I overlooking something? Type rating/atp practical maybe?

Flight training on the GI Bill is never the best use of the money. I would recommend paying for it out of pocket, or even putting it on a high interest credit card - you would still make money based on the dollar cost of what you could get a different institute of higher learning.
Smart assery aside...pay for it yourself.


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Toonces,

That advice is sound. The only thing for me is that the year I have left is a bonus 9/11 fourth year (already used all my other benefit for my undergrad) and it is non-transferrable and I've already got my masters. Essentially, if I don't use it for this, it is going to go unused. I've looked a bit more and right now I don't think the VA will let you use it for the certificate (may one day, who knows) so I'll probably just use it for the practical. Still saves me $5000 out of pocket.

Just as a corollary, I posted in another thread about paying for ATP and CTP out of pocket vs spending a few months at a regional airline and letting them pay for your CTP and ATP.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mi...onals-pay.html

In that thread, I encourage guys to do the long-term math between the options of paying for ATP/CTP yourself compared to a trip to get them on the regional airlines' dime.

IMHO, in your circumstance with the cost being $20,000, it might be worth it to let a regional pick up the cost, but that all hinges on what actually happens with respect to when you'd get hired at your "career destination". If it takes you 6 months post-separation to get hired, it probably wasn't worth it, but if you get a class date right away, then it probably was worth it.

This was the case with the montgomery, but there are very smart ways to use the post 9/11 and maximize benefit. I enrolled in a yellow ribbon college with a professional aviation program. I had a BS already, but wanted to "pursue" another bachelors in the professional aviation program. Coincidentally, I wanted to take only flight labs in the semester I enrolled. I used 2 of my 36 months of GI bill, got around $50k in flight benefits, enough to get my commercial/inst/ASEL/AMEL add ons. I could have stayed longer and got a CFI, CFI-G, CFI-H, CFII, MEI, ASES, etc., using the money I still have left in my flight account and using no more GI Bill (maybe 1 month more), but I already had a job lined up at a regional and a kid on the way, so I had to ETS/PCS and go to my new home. Bottom line is I could have got damn near any rating I wanted and still have plenty of GI Bill for an MBA or law degree.

Is it really possible at this point to get onboard with the regionals with the 750TT R-ATP?

Yeah...simple for most regionals. They'll take anyone they can with any form of ATP mins. Only restriction for Mesa is no criminal record that will preclude you from getting in to Canada. Don't think others have the luxury of being selective either.

Good to know. I'm not even close to R-ATP mins yet but the regionals is something I'm considering to start logging that 121 time once I meet the mins.

Hey folks

First time poster. 4700hr all military M-E jet/M-E turbo prop, SE Jet/Turbo prop. Looking for guidance on first step needed to fill out my apps for the majors... if they'll take a 47YO old guy! (current & flying 20-25 hrs/mo) I just decided to consider the airlines and obviously do not have my ATP written done.
Any recommendations for first step to get CTP/ATP written to minimize pain and cost? Quality of CTP training is not my priority.. Just want it as painless as possible. Anyone out there do it recently that found a no-nonsense military friendly program? Thanks in advance. Good luck to everyone.

VR Txtailhooker

Try the search function on here. A lot has been previously posted on this very subject.
No, you're not too old.
Also, doesn't your squadron have a ton of gouge on all of this?

- Yes, you'll have no problems getting hired at your age. I know of guys in their late 50s who have been hired at all three legacies in the last year.

- Unfortunately, the CTP is a tougher nut to crack than the ATP. Because it requires simulator time, there aren't really any mil-friendly fast-track programs like there are for just the ATP itself.

Thank you HuggyU2 and Hacker15e

All squadron guys around here going to the majors did the ATP written before Aug 14. Unfortunately i was returning from three years overseas and missed the ATP written deadline.

I'll keep looking for the best place to knock out the CTP in the next month or two.. Not excited about a week of unnecessary training that costs serious $$$.

Best place to go is Higher Power, they have a week long course in DFW that can knock it out for you no problem.

1. Yes you can get hired at 47
2. What are you flying to stay current? Best if it is a turbine AC and you're getting paid (even if part time)
3. You can study for ATP written, then get a CFI to sign you off, go take the test, then pay same CFI to prep you for checkride in a "cheap" twin. Mine was in a Beech Duchess (easy to fly).
4. Make sure to fly your checkride with a designated examiner and not an FAA examiner.

I did it the expensive way. Got my ATP first, then got a 737 type a few years later (this was 2003 when it was required by SW). In hindsight I could have combined them.

E2/C2 guy? Only ME turboprop with a tailhook. Good luck.

The majors prefer to hire guys in their late 40's/early 50's. It's more economical for them rather than have you sit on 12 captain pay for 20+ years.

Check your FARs Cods - if you didn't take the ATP written prior to August last year, you need the CTP before taking the written test.



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