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Retire or Bum

Old 02-13-2017, 02:24 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by FlewNavy View Post
Also remember that your retirement PCS move benefit is still good for 12 months POST-retirement so you have quite a bit of flexibility during that year when you get hired.
During my retirement briefings, I was told 12 months, with the ability to extend to 18 on a case-by-case basis. I recently went in to inquire about extending and was told that you are able to extend 1 year at a time up to 5 times. Assuming you're AF and this was Army, but I assume this would be standard across the DOD.
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:59 AM
  #12  
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I'm with Hacker as well. At this point suck up the 15 months and get the AD retirement and Tricare. Then bail for a quick tour with a regional. You won't regret it.
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Old 02-13-2017, 06:08 AM
  #13  
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Lots of variables to consider and many intangible that can't be put on a power point slide.

We have had a few people consider this in our unit over the years. Basically they would choose not to retire and to serve as traditional reservists who already had earned a 20 year active duty retirement. These were AGRs who lived local, were not sure about airlines, airlines were not hiring yet, did not want to take another assignment and uproot families, wanted to stay current in case they wanted to do the airline thing, and the on/off again return to fly as a retiree process was either off or taking over a year to accomplish.

You are correct in thinking that it takes about 12 days of work doing some combo of active duty pay status and inactive duty (UTAs/AFTPs) to earn what you would earn in retirement pay.

Questions to consider

Are you an O-5 or an O-4? If you are an O-4 with PME complete, there is a fairly good chance of getting promoted in the ARC. When you eventually retire from the ANG/AFRC, you would draw a retirement as an O-4 immediately that would include your 20 years active, plus whatever participation points you did as a guardsmen/reservist, then at age 60 it would recalculate to a full O-5 retirement. This assumes you did 3 years time in grade after promotion as a traditional. Of course, if you did 3 years of total active duty time in the higher pay grade before retirement, you would immediately draw an O-5 retirement.

Can you get hired by a regional and go to training while on terminal leave? If so then you won't really lose any money by not retiring. If you can't get hired before you separate, then the 2-3 months of training at a regional to get to the line won't allow much time for doing much other than a drill period or two either on UTA weekend or as makeups. On the flip side, if you don't get hired at a regional before separating, going TDY to the the school house will provide you at least 3 months of pay and you will start building hours sooner. Those hours combined with the network of airline folks in the unit may allow you to skip the regionals entirely.

Is a unit going to hire you, where are they located, is it somewhere you want to stay and put down roots after you get a job at a major? If so, then it might be worth it? The ability to mil drop to adjust your schedule to be home for key events until seniority allows you to shedule your life the way you want would be a QOL enhancer while on first year pay/schedules at a regional.

What unit/airframe are you trying to get in? What is the deployment/tdy rate? Are they going to want a commitment in terms of min days per month participation or number of deployments you have to "volunteer" for? As someone stated above the ANG/AFRC is only getting worse. Trickle down queep from active duty and the PC monster is alive and well. When I first left the ANG in 98 to go to the 340th FTG in AFRC my observation then was the AFRC was about 5 years behind the active AF in terms of queep, and that the ANG was about 5 years behind the AFRC. Since 9/11, OEF, and OIF, I think both components of the ARC have closed the queep gap at an exponential rate.

If a unit is short enough on manning, then hiring a guy who already has a retirement in the bank should not be too big of an issue. You shouldn't be taking away a spot on the manning doc that a traditional already established in the unit might need for promotion. Sanctuary waivers for active duty orders are no issue since you already have a 20 year active duty retirement. The only issue may be a training commitment after spending money on you to get you qualified to fly again since someone else stated above that you could basically walk away as soon as your BS meter pegged.

The pros to doing this are getting both 121 time as SIC and logging more military PIC time in your MWS. The network of airline bubbas in the unit combined with your 121 time will help you land at a major carrier sooner.

The cons to doing this are your life will be extrememely complicated and busy in the short term. Getting up to speed again in your MWS (assumes you go to unit with your prior MWS) while learning a new but relatively easy way of 121 ops, plus the 121 airplane will be a pain in the butt and take you longer to comfortable in both planes. I definitely would not move for a regional unless it was to a place near one of your top choices of major carriers and in a place your family wants to put down roots.

Good luck, lots to consider. It can be a good idea under the right circumstances, but it will take a lot of research to pull it off. In the long run, it would be worth it, but it will suck regardless in the short term.

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss any ideas.
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Old 02-13-2017, 04:12 PM
  #14  
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I would say retire and start your new career ASAP. I retired a long time ago, but a lot of things are the same. I commuted to flying freight for a year and then commuted to United for a year. I finally got a bid to where I wanted to live. Since the move was farther than domicile to domicile United wanted me to pay for part of the move. I was able to use my AF retirement move and they didn't even charge me for the several thousand pounds I was over weight. I'm now retired and on medicare. Tricare is my secondary insurance which I never understood what a great deal it is. My wife and I are both 69 years old with the usual problems plus she is diabetic. Our medical costs are minimal.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:57 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by Tweetdrvr View Post
Lots of really good points but don't want to make everyone read them again.


Right now, the plan is to go to Regional training while on terminal. Working on airlineapps.com right now (nightmare). The ANG/AFRC unit(s) I would want to join are in my hometown, where I am right now, but not an MWS I've been qualified in. I would have to go through initial qual (also here), but don't know how that would fit in the timeline. Being a non-prior MWS guy, I'm unsure of my marketability with these units.

Part of my calculus is how long I can realistically expect to spend at the regional. Buddies are telling me to expect at least 6 but no more than 9 flying the line for the regional.

If that's the case, I've got savings to bridge the 6-9 month regional gap before I get a call from a major. Yes, I'm assuming I'll get the call and the CJO. The environment we're in makes me feel ok about that assumption.

Am I off-base?




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Old 02-15-2017, 07:26 PM
  #16  
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I would say your time depends on many things. What type of platform were you coming from? What type of leadership jobs did you hold? If you have a relatively common background - expect more time at the regional. If you have boxes checked like IP, director of ops, SEFE, safety officer etc then you might have a shorter stay. Bottom line - financially plan for 24 months and hope for 6. Communicate with the family that times will be lean for awhile relative to 20 year mil pay...tighten the belt now!
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:29 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by FlewNavy View Post
I would say your time depends on many things. What type of platform were you coming from? What type of leadership jobs did you hold? If you have a relatively common background - expect more time at the regional. If you have boxes checked like IP, director of ops, SEFE, safety officer etc then you might have a shorter stay. Bottom line - financially plan for 24 months and hope for 6. Communicate with the family that times will be lean for awhile relative to 20 year mil pay...tighten the belt now!

Copy all. This makes sense. I left flying as an IP, but I've been a DO and CC in aircraft maintenance squadrons. Think they'll put much weight in that?



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Old 02-15-2017, 07:45 PM
  #18  
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15 months of punching the clock and retire... Active Duty life isn't getting any better. Deferring a pension check an additional 20 years this far out is foolish.

Have you been medically cleared and returned to flight status? If not those could be some sizable hurdles to jump through. Even if you do get cleared- you've already seen what can happen when you get DQ'd. Do you want to risk getting DQ'd again only to retire then wait a decade or more until you get your pension?

If it's the money you're worried about, got to the ISR contractors to get current, otherwise suck it up at a regional...

IMO you're better off walking away with a pension and flying on the outside than taking the gamble that the next 20 years bumming will be worth the deferral of the $/bennies.
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Old 02-16-2017, 08:00 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Otterbox View Post
15 months of punching the clock and retire... Active Duty life isn't getting any better. Deferring a pension check an additional 20 years this far out is foolish.

IMO you're better off walking away with a pension and flying on the outside than taking the gamble that the next 20 years bumming will be worth the deferral of the $/bennies.
Otter,

I don't think you fully understand how reserve retirement works.

A traditional guardsmen/reservist doesn't get a retirement until age 60. In Jan 2008, the law was changed so that certain active duty tours (mostly deployments but some CONUS duty) qualify a person to move their retirement earlier in 90 day blocks with the caveat that you can't get a retirement more than 10 years early or before age 50. As an example, the active duty days the Reserve Associate UPT program gets qualify for this, and I performed enough active duty in a few fiscal years after this law was enacted to draw an age 58 and 9 month retirement as opposed the the traditional age 60 retirement.

If a traditional guardsmen/reservist earns the equivalent active duty time of 20 years of service (roughly 7320 AD points, 365x20 plus some leap years) then that person can retire and draw an immediate retirement just like an active duty service member. This is rare, but it does happen. A guard baby in my UPT class got on the AGR train relatively early in his career and earned a 20 year retirement by 23 years of service. A few folks at DLF came off active duty at the 12 year point, got furloughed in the post 9/11 environment, and troughed/bummed and got over the hump between 26 and 28 years of service.

Just because someone has enough points to draw an immediate retirement does not mean they have to retire. I know of a few general officers with airline jobs, who have 20 yrs of active duty time and could retire, but continue to serve because they feel they are making a difference and like what they do. Their active duty retirement may be based on a lower pay grade but they could retire.

The ANG/AFRC has a program that was initiated in the last big hiring airline market pre 9/11 to allow retirees to return to serve in the ANG/AFRC. I think the 340th FTG is one of the few units to consistently take advantage of this program and mostly at DLF, because if you are willing to the do the U.S. 90 from SAT to DLF (a.k.a. trail of tears) then you are a rare breed and your services are needed. The problem with this program is/was depending the powers who are in charge, sometimes the answer is no, we aren't doing that even though it says we can, or it takes so long to get you back in that it isn't worth it or the person is no longer interested in coming back.

In this program, you trade a day of retired pay for whatever duty you perform. Somehow some computer magic makes it all work for pay. These people are still subject to time in grade limitations, so an O-5 can only go to 28 years. You can also get promoted in retirement.

This is where this gets more complicated. Two or three people at DLF retired as O-4s, made O-5 in retirement. Their monthly retired pay is still based on the grade they were when they left active duty, their current duty pays at O-5 rates. When they retire the second time, their pay check is based on the total number of points/time in service they accrued as an active duty retiree participating in the ANG/AFRC. If they had three years time in grade at the new higher pay grade, at age 60, their total retirement check regonkulates to an O-5 retirement based on 20 years of active duty time plus whatever additional stuff they added on as guardsmen/reservist. If by chance through deployments, enough sets of long term active duty orders, or an AGR tour they get 3 years of active duty points as an O-5, their retirement check is immediately based on the new pay grade.

The lesser understood version of this is choosing not to retire off active duty or from an AGR status with 20 years of active duty. This is doable now that we have Tricare Reserve Select so traditonal reservists can have affordable healthcare. Before this came to be, unemployed tradtional reservists (a.k.a. guard bums/reserve troughers) had no health benefits unless on a 30+ day set of active duty orders.

A person simply transfers from a full time AGR position at the end of the orders into a tradtional position, or in the case of the OP, just joins the ANG/Reserve after separating from Active Duty. They already have a 20 year retirement in the bank, and when they finally choose to retire, they can draw immediate pay. If they get promoted in retirement, then their retirement is calculated just like the retiree return to the ANG/AFRC program. No waiting and going non-current while waiting on the retiree return process to work its way through the levels of bureaucracy and potentially being told no.

Cons: You end up working about 12 days/month doing some combo of active duty/inactive duty pay status to put the same money in the bank as you would draw in retirement pay. A unit also must be willing to hire this person, which means they have room on the manning roster to take you without screwing over someone in the unit's opportunity to get promoted and move into that billet.

Pros: If you are non current, then this is the way to get current doing what you love, keep money rolling in at probably 75% of your active duty paycheck considering probably 3 months plus of active duty to get schooled up in the airplane and deployment opportunities without incurring an active duty service commitment. You also cultivate networking opportunities with airline bros in the ANG/AFRC unit you are flying with.

Scenarios (likely/unlikely) where this could be a consideration:

AGRs who did not plan on going to the airlines, but do it to avoid getting forced into an unwanted PCS to an assignment that was non-flying. Crap hits fan, now they don't want to move, but weren't prepared for airlines. Now they can stay current while getting prepared for the airlines or figuring out what they want to do in post retirement. Since they are already in the unit, it doesn't cost the unit anything in getting them recurrent, and when they figure out a plan, they can walk away and draw the retirement on their terms.

Active duty members choosing to not take a promotion. A few years ago, a sitting active duty squadron commander at DLF got promoted. He was mentally ready to go off into retirement and got promoted anyway. He spoke with us about changing patches and joining the reserves. Not retire return to fly, but separate and cross immediately to keep flying with us. This would have allowed him to look for a an O-6 position in the AFRC. An O-6 traditional billet is a much easier life than on active duty, you are not going to get PCS'd two or three times. If he found a position, he could take it for three years time in grade, then retire with an O-5 pension that would raise to the O-6 pension at age 60. So it would have kept his options open allowing him stay current for airlines without risk of finishing as an O-6 from a non-flying assignment. In the end, he ultimately retired as an O-5 and is now a high school JROTC instructor.

These are rare circumstances but in few cases it could be a viable option. The OP could go to a regional and get hired at a major in 9 months, but with just under 1000 TPIC, maybe not. The regional solves the currency and total time issue, but he won't get PIC time for at least a year to 18 months on property. As a military guy, the unit who hires him will get him into the left seat and put his total PIC over 1000 faster than the 121 regional will. This business is a lot of timing and luck and there are many paths to take to get there. No one has the right answer as there are so many variables. In this case, the sacrifice of some time and possibly 3 months of retirement pay to fly militarily might open the door to a major carrier sooner with networking and a bit more PIC time.
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Old 02-16-2017, 09:16 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Sus Scrofa View Post
Copy all. This makes sense. I left flying as an IP, but I've been a DO and CC in aircraft maintenance squadrons. Think they'll put much weight in that?



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Based on what I heard at the UAL Veteran event - yes they would care about jobs with high levels of leadership responsibility. Now where I am unsure is if they would let you check the DO and Chief Pilot boxes and get credit for it. DOs and CCs were told they were qualified in the eyes of UAL to check those off.
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