Shenzi105

If I am at NJA, I would still tell myself that upgrade will take 13-14 years. I'd rather be happily surprised then disappointed in case the global/national economic environment changes; even though it sounds like and it looks like it should be dropping to 6-7-8.

GeeWizDriver

And be sure not to ask uncomfortable questions...

Retractable

But isn’t that true everywhere then?

Answer... yes.

tomgoodman

If such questions are, in a Moderator’s opinion, merely a disguised way of delivering an insult, then you are absolutely correct.

DH2time

The difference is at NJA with no retirement age you can not conclusively base your upgrade time on anything besides potential growth.

Let’s look at AK for example on the other end.

Retirements in next 5 years- around 288 based on age 65 rule.
Growth- 50 firm plus 25 firm from an earlier order. That’s 75 BUT those could be always pushed or sold or etc. AK in investor calls has indicated it is a net growth of approximately 4 percent a year.

So looking at just attrition you are looking at 10 percent movement in seniority list. That is as close to guaranteed in this industry. In addition you have 4 percent growth or about 115 per year so about 500 after five years.

That’s not bad at all. A movement of 288-788 pilots.

That’s why someone would move on. You have a guaranteed retirement age with the additional growth potential while at NJA it is based on potential growth and that’s it.

As far as QOL, that’s subjective and is not relevant to any discussion on these boards. Many people commute 3 time zones and are on reserve and are perfectly happy with their 17 days off. Others live at base have 19 days off and are not happy at all. It’s subjective

In a counter to your trip, I flew 3 days and 10 legs, averaged 17 hours off and went from Cabo to SEA, never saw a cloud except for the marine layer moving in at night. I started work day one at 1800L and ended at 2300L on last day so that’s only 53 hours away plus the drive into work and back. Then I had 5 days off. I bid 50 percent in base so it’s not even a senior trip. I don’t ever use the bathroom inflight, I refuse but I’m an old commuter guy so it’s a matter of pride. So you just do and we can all get along....

jtf560

Alaska has a vastly better QOL compared to anything other than the Global. NetJets is a different kind of beast and while QOL has crept upwards for the smaller cabins with better scheduling stability and longer overnights, it will never have anywhere near the QOL on the road and the amount of days off for the majority of pilots to have while making more money over their careers at most airlines. Even a possible merger would probably be a good thing in that upgrades would probably go down in time for those currently at Alaska. I'm a Global SIC and if I didn't have the option to upgrade here if more money becomes more important to me, I would be all over Alaska. I don't enjoy working hard at work and would much prefer the QOL a non-regional airline would provide if I wasn't in the personal circumstances that I am in. I like my job as it is and I like my options and I don't plan on bailing out, but the vast majority of SICs here would most likely be better off at most of the non regional airlines regardless of upgrade time at NJA. I still get shivers down my spine thinking about what it would be like going back to the small cabins, even as a PIC making more - QOL is just too important to me.

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Twofiddyatten

There is no element of NJA that creates better QOL than any major. Hell every large cabin part 91 pilot I know has QOL no NJA pilot has ever seen. Assuming you are talking about Alaska Airlines and not the state, having worked for both. I can tell you the QOL is unmatched. I have fatigued once in 3 years at Alaska Airlines.

Back to the subject at hand. Who cares what upgrades will be in 3-6 years? What are upgrades right now? Are those upgrades sustainable? Has there been a single email regarding pilot hiring projections moving forward? The answer to the previous two questions is no. The problem with NetJets is that it allows people to literally guess on the future. Upgrades will probably fall below a year within the next 10 years because NJA will be literally desperate to find a warm body to employ. The airlines are retiring 3-4 times the amount of the entire NJA seniority list each year for the next decade. NJA is going to be in real trouble when they can’t get applicants. The more important question, is how will NJA attract pilots in 10 years...

jtf560

QOL is very subjective. What is important for my QOL is not what everyone wants. I want long legs with time to see the world and have a beer or two. This year I will be gone from home about 164 days. I will have known my days off (outside of a few extended days they requested mid tour that I could have said no to) at least by the 15th of the month before. I will have gone to at least 20 different countries with time to check things out in all but 2 of them. I will have had about 16 hours off per night on average. I will make significantly more than most 91 large cabin PICs (according to NBAA and Pro Pilot pay surveys for large cabin PICs) while knowing my days off before they don't call me that day like quite a few 91 operators. I will fly more hours and be gone from home more, but at least I will be certain I won't be called out on my days off. The Global at NJA is like working for a different company. I won't have as many days off or make as much as most major SICs and I usually won't have as much time between legs at international destinations as major pilots doing the larfe cabin international, but I usually have over 24 hours and sometimes a few days when on other continents. When I have more than a day, I am usually able to get R2 standby duty which only requires me to acknowledge my brief for the next day. I can go where I want and have beer on those duty assignments if I desire. It isn't a perfect world, but for me it makes the job almost as enjoyable as being home. This is excellent QOL for me.

Most of my friends at the majors worked here before, but left never having flown the Global or Gulfstreems or BBJ before the Globals were on property. They all like there current jobs much better than NetJets. Most people would feel the same and I probably would have gone for the majors if I was younger when the doors started opening up wider like they are now. That said, none of my friends seem to enjoy their jobs as much as I currently enjoy mine. Most have more days off and make more, but their happy time is mostly their time off. Maybe the shine will wear off on the travel and the 135 rewrite will make the small cabin QOL palatable enough for me to quit bypassing upgrade. I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy work as much anymore, but it wouldn't be a hideous way to finish out my career.

As far as upgrades at NetJets goes, I believe they will come down significantly over the next decade, but unless the company continues to improve things and does so quite immensely, it will be almost impossible to get pilots that are truly desirable. I do believe there will be many improvents to try to keep up with hiring needs, but I really don't know if they will be able to charge the customers enough to keep it desirable enough. I should be old enough to access my retirement funds and retire well enough before the house of cards tumbles down if a lack of pilots due to a lack of suitable compensation does bring it down. I personally wouldn't start here of I was new to the game and I really can't suggest it to most. But it isn't horrible and it is rather good for what I want at this point of my life.

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727C47

How dare you be positive: )

Twofiddyatten

Well said. Everyone's QOL has some differences. You are making lemonade by being at NJA and taking a large cabin fleet. Unfortunately it is basically capturing a unicorn to hold it.