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Logging PIC time in 91/135 vs 121
Questions with regards to logging PIC time in the 91/135 world vs 121. I've heard that the airlines wants to see PIC time as "Captain Time" only, not necessarily counting "sole manipulator of the controls" time and I'm wanting to ensure my logbook is absolutely correct. Here are a few examples:
1) Private pilot flying in a C172 with an instructor. Can the student (who is a Private Pilot) log PIC and Instruction Received? 2) Two appropriately rated pilots fly a Part 91 leg in a non-type required King Air 90. Can the FO (who is PF) log PIC time? 3) Two PIC typed pilots fly a Part 91 leg in a type required jet. Can the FO (who is PF) log PIC time? Until now I have kept a separate column for "Captain of Record." Just wondering where the airlines stand on logging PIC time without being labeled Captain of the trip. |
Originally Posted by gordonam
(Post 2884998)
1) Private pilot flying in a C172 with an instructor. Can the student (who is a Private Pilot) log PIC and Instruction Received?
Originally Posted by gordonam
(Post 2884998)
2) Two appropriately rated pilots fly a Part 91 leg in a non-type required King Air 90. Can the FO (who is PF) log PIC time?
I think there are some caveats for if an SIC is required per the operating certificate or insurance you can log SIC time.
Originally Posted by gordonam
(Post 2884998)
3) Two PIC typed pilots fly a Part 91 leg in a type required jet. Can the FO (who is PF) log PIC time?
I think the black and white answer is when you're Captain of Record in the left seat you can log PIC. I can log "PIC" time as a FO for my regional when it's my leg, but no way a major would accept that. "Captain" time is all that matters. |
The majors/legacies (at least some of them) specify the type of PIC time they want for their minimums. A few of them want actual PIC information, as in you are signing for and ultimately in charge of the aircraft. Not a bad idea to keep them separate to make it easier down the road.
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Originally Posted by Broing
(Post 2885010)
Yes.
So yes, per the FAA since you're "Sole Manipulator." Per the airlines I think also yes. Only the PF in this case would log PIC time and the PM wouldn't be able to log anything. Unless the PM is an MEI and performing dual given. I think there are some caveats for if an SIC is required per the operating certificate or insurance you can log SIC time. The PIC would be the captain even if you're flying as the FO period is my understanding. Sure technically it's PIC per the FAA's definition but airlines would not count that as PIC because as the FO you are not the "Captain of Record." I think the black and white answer is when you're Captain of Record in the left seat you can log PIC. I can log "PIC" time as a FO for my regional when it's my leg, but no way a major would accept that. "Captain" time is all that matters. |
Here is a little secret: There will never be an investigation into your PIC time unless you have an accident or are bragging to your buddies at the bar about how you cheated on PIC time.
I had peers at the same airline who ended up getting way more instrument time than me. After a while I figured out that they were a lot more liberal in their counting of instrument hours than I was. Unfortunately, insurance companies now dictate what planes we can fly, when we can fly them, and what kind of future you will have. If I had a nickle for every dumb insurance hour requirement I saw, I would be a millionaire. |
Originally Posted by Broing
(Post 2885010)
I think there are some caveats for if an SIC is required per the operating certificate or insurance you can log SIC time.
If insurance requires an SIC or the boss wants an SIC or the mailman’s uncles Dr.’s brother in law wants an SIC, etc. you can not log it. Has to be required per regulations. Anything else does not matter including insurance. If it’s a KA 350 and the PIC does not require an SIC per his Type Rating but the company installs one of the baggage area seats (does not have to be occupied), then an SIC is required (10 pax seats) and can log the time. Or in the standard configuration (9 pax seats), if the autopilot is MEL’d inop then an SIC is required and can log the time (autopilot in lieu of SIC). |
Originally Posted by gordonam
(Post 2884998)
Questions with regards to logging PIC time in the 91/135 world vs 121. I've heard that the airlines wants to see PIC time as "Captain Time" only, not necessarily counting "sole manipulator of the controls" time and I'm wanting to ensure my logbook is absolutely correct. Here are a few examples:
1) Private pilot flying in a C172 with an instructor. Can the student (who is a Private Pilot) log PIC and Instruction Received? 2) Two appropriately rated pilots fly a Part 91 leg in a non-type required King Air 90. Can the FO (who is PF) log PIC time? 3) Two PIC typed pilots fly a Part 91 leg in a type required jet. Can the FO (who is PF) log PIC time? Until now I have kept a separate column for "Captain of Record." Just wondering where the airlines stand on logging PIC time without being labeled Captain of the trip. The PIC has the final authority over the operation of the aircraft, is listed as PIC on the release, signs for the aircraft, is the in flight security coordinator etc. Just because you're typed in the aircraft and are manipulating the controls doesn't mean you're the PIC. If you're an F.O. at a 121 carrier but are logging PIC time you will have a lot of explaining to do at a major carrier interview. |
Here’s one: anyone else ever been the legal PIC and unable to log the time? E.g. single pilot airplane on a 91 repo leg where the SIC is PF?
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Originally Posted by cptsesso
(Post 2885197)
If 135 OPS Spec requires an SIC then yes you could log it.
If insurance requires an SIC or the boss wants an SIC or the mailman’s uncles Dr.’s brother in law wants an SIC, etc. you can not log it. Has to be required per regulations. Anything else does not matter including insurance. If it’s a KA 350 and the PIC does not require an SIC per his Type Rating but the company installs one of the baggage area seats (does not have to be occupied), then an SIC is required (10 pax seats) and can log the time. Or in the standard configuration (9 pax seats), if the autopilot is MEL’d inop then an SIC is required and can log the time (autopilot in lieu of SIC). If the aircraft has more than 9 passenger seats, you can’t use A015 and therefore an SIC is always required. 135.99 (b) My company doesn’t have A015 therefore, under 135, an SIC is required even though we only have 9 passenger seats. In other words, the regulations require an SIC. The OPSPECS give you relief under A015. |
Originally Posted by EMAW
(Post 2885803)
Almost. Part 135 passenger ops always requires an SIC (135.101), no matter the seats, UNLESS the operator has OPSPEC A015 which allows an autopilot in lieu of SIC AND the aircraft has 9 passenger seats or less. (135.105)
If the aircraft has more than 9 passenger seats, you can’t use A015 and therefore an SIC is always required. 135.99 (b) My company doesn’t have A015 therefore, under 135, an SIC is required even though we only have 9 passenger seats. In other words, the regulations require an SIC. The OPSPECS give you relief under A015. As for 91, you can go to the FAA’s Chief Counsel webpage and look up the Cato, Nichols, and Herman Letters of Interpretation and get your answers from the proverbial horse’s mouth. |
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