Small Part 135 operators
 

Hello, I'm a new member and brand new pilot. My goal is to instruct and fly charter part-time. Realisticly I would like to instruct locally and fly in a ME aircraft for a charter company. If a company is operating a piston ME aircraft and fly with a SIC, what hours realisticly would they look for in a SIC pilot. Also, realisticly are there many operations flying twin piston aircraft with a SIC? I'm also kind of assuming that my first flying job outside of instruting would be the right seat of a twin piston. Is it realistic to expect/look for/want to fly right seat in a twin piston? Thanks for everyones time,

safe flying

Might be worth it to spend a few bucks on climbto350.com to get an idea of what companies are looking for, and willing to pay.

sellener,

what kind of hours do you have and what's your location?

Ryan

For all this to happen, I assume you're living in or around a larger metropolitian area. Flight instructing part is probably the easiest to get, seeing how there seems to be an abundance of these jobs, but for how long, I don't know.

As far as the 135 side, this is sticky. Contacts/connections with someone if you're low time, and low-time for me as far as a commercial pilot position is less than 1000 hrs. There are operators that use 2 pilots in twin-piston planes, mainly C421's, C414's, PA31's, and occasionally the lighter Be58's and C310's. Most likely a lot of these "positions" are going to be very low pay, and you're there for the sake of Insurance, not FAA reasons.

99% of these you will not be legal to log the SIC time, because all of these planes are single-pilot approved, and I'm almost 100% guarantee'd that they have an autopilot, so even 135 they don't need the SIC. You can log any 91 legs assuming you have all endorsements including High-Perf, High-Alt, etc..(421s'/414's require high-alt endorsement).

So "realistically" speaking, looking for these positions as a way to get your foot in the door, is not a bad way to do it, but it's not always the easiest of ways. I do think it offers some real-world experience if you can get into something of this nature because you can see how the pro's do it on a day-to-day basis. It will not be a good source of income in most situations, unless turbine equipement is involved, and also a lower time-building venture as well, but I feel in this case it's "quality" vs. "quantity" of hours that really matter.

I don't believe it matters that they have an autopilot. Two pilots are required under pt. 135 for IFR. An exception to the rule is made if there is an operating, approved autopilot, and in this case one pilot is allowed. Doesn't mean that two pilots are NOT allowed.

Yeah, that's an OpSpec you can get, but in general, I'd say charter customers probably feel more comfortable with two pilots.

There are companies that will hire you with less than 135 PIC mins, but you have to meet people. I should know, since I'm employed by such a company. But I never would have gotten the job if I hadn't talked to the CP for 30 minutes at a job fair. Most of my fellow instructors talked to the airlines, but my buddy and I talked to the 135 outfit. We both got called, the others have run into the downturn at the airlines. A matter of timing and choices is status quo in this industry.

Basically any mid-light twin w/ an approved autopilot(I'd say 100% of them that are used for hauling pax), then you're not required an SIC. Some Ops specs have special wording approved by their FSDO to use an SIC, and let that SIC log that time pending check-rides etc....

I never said you can't put a second pilot in that seat, I'm just saying that they can't log the time unless there's a provision for that. SIC in a baron/C310 isn't going to impress anyone, but for the purpose of building time to get onto that companies roster once you hit the 1200TT.

According to 61.51, you can not log SIC time unless the SIC is required. Having an autopilot dis-requires the SIC, so you can not log it. You are certainly allowed to sit there and even perform the duties of an SIC, but since you aren't required, you cant log SIC.

But then again, it's your logbook. Log whatever you want. ;)

That's what I was looking for, but didn't have my FAR/AIM with me!

That's why alot of companies disable the auto-pilot, so the SICs can log their time... Pencil whip baby! lol :p

Well, I disagree with you. But I'm just a guy on the internet. Best to talk with the DO of the company and with the company's POI at FSDO. I'll just say that all the 135 companies I know allow this with the blessing of FSDO, in order to help their low-time people gain hours.

Here's a legal interpretation I found. Sorry for the length.



March 26, 1992


Mr. Michael G. Tarsa


Dear Mr. Tarsa:

Thank you for your letter of April 3, 1991, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). We apologize that staff shortages, regulatory matters, and interpretation requests received prior to yours prevented us from answering your questions sooner.

Your letter presents the following scenario: a Part 135 certificate holder conducts operations in multiengine airplanes under instrument flight rules (IFR). The operator has approval to conduct operations without an SIC using an approved autopilot under the provisions of FAR 135.105. The operator has assigned a fully qualified pilot, who has had a Part 135 competency check, to act as SIC in an aircraft that does not require two pilots under its type certification. Although FAR 135.101 requires an SIC for Part 135 operations in IFR conditions, the autopilot approval is an exception to that requirement.

You correctly state that while the SIC is flying the airplane, he can log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency checks required for Part 135 operations, at least as SIC.

You then ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 135.109, can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane. The answer is yes.

FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:

(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.


FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only regulates the recording of:

(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:

(2) Pilot in command flight time. (i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot in command time only that flight time during which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in command time all of the flight time during which he acts as pilot in command.

(iii) (omitted).

(3) Second in command flight time. A pilot may log as second in command time all flight time during which he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot in command flight time that are pertinent to your question. The first is as the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 135.109, that person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft.

The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your letter. Thus, a multiengine airplane flown under Part 135 by two pilots can have both pilots logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated second in command is manipulating the controls.

We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot has not qualified to serve as a PIC under Part 135.

An example of this difference is FAR 135.225(d), which raises IFR landing minimums for pilots in command of turbine powered airplanes flown under Part 135 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check rides necessary for certification as a Part 135 PIC.

Approval for single pilot operations with use of an operative approved autopilot system under FAR 135.105 gives an operator an additional option in the conduct of operations. It does not mandate that all future flights be conducted in that manner. The operator can elect to fly trips with two pilots, as is otherwise required for flight in IFR conditions under FAR 135.101, using the second in command instead of the autopilot.

Your second question asks if, under the circumstances given above, the SIC can log time as SIC when the designated pilot in command is flying the aircraft. The answer is yes, as long as the certificate holder is using the SIC as a crewmember instead of exercising the autopilot authorization. In other words, the certificate holder elects not to conduct an IFR flight using the single pilot with a functioning autopilot option, but rather conducts an IFR flight using two qualified pilots. The two pilots are then "required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted", FAR 61.51(c)(3), and the assumption is that the second pilot (SIC) will function as a required crewmember, and SIC time may validly be logged. However, if for some reason another qualified pilot "rides along" and does not function as a crewmember, then second in command time may not be validly logged.

This interpretation has been prepared by Arthur E. Jacobson, Staff Attorney, Operations Law Branch, Regulations and Enforcement Division; Richard C. Beitel, Manager. It has been coordinated with the Manager, Air Transportation Division, and the Manager, General Aviation and Commercial Division, Flight Standards Service.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,


Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division

Well, I may be a bit loopy right now, but I think that LOI is saying exactly what I'm saying? You can only log it as SIC if you have the autopilot off. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Maybe it's what you're saying. I thought you said 'Having an autopilot dis-requires the SIC, so you can not log it.' which is different than 'you can only log it as SIC if you have the autopilot off'.

Nevertheless, I don't believe you're right. I believe both the PIC and SIC can log the time, whether or not the autopilot is on. It makes sense, right? The SIC performs the same duties whether the PIC is hand-flying or managing the autopilot.

You do bring up another good point about the PIC time. I'm working for a 135 company flying BE-10s and the autopilots have been disengaged, so I always log SIC, but now it seems to make sense that I could log PIC on my legs too. I pretty much HAVE to, because in order to get the ATP, I need 100(?) PIC cross country, and I don't have that unless I go rent a plane or instruct. Or just log the 135 legs as PIC. I've been keeping a separate column in the logbook "BE-10 Sole Manipulator" so I can easily just add that to my true PIC time. I'll definitely contact my POI about it.

I wonder if the SIC should be logging SIC and PIC when he's the sole manipulator? ACTING SIC and LOGGING PIC, oh I love these vague regs..

In 135, I know you can only log PIC time as an SIC if you are the sole manipulator of the controls. This means manipulating the autopilot as well. However, if the aircraft is rated for the use of only "single pilot," then PIC time can only be logged while at the controls during the empty legs or Part 91 legs. Make sense? I have discussed this with my DO back in Sept. He was my check airmen for 135.293(b)

Now, that we all have put in our .02 cents I think sellener has a question. Check up on www.airmethods.com. To apply for an SIC position all you need are Part 135 VFR mins. only. Good luck.

Hey friendlyskies, how do you like flying the 100's in the summer time? I think I can, I think I can.....:)

wait, I guess if you are flying the B-100's then you have the Garretts. But, still, stuby little airplane.

Exactly right, you can log the time (sole manipulator of controls while serving as SIC) as PIC for the purposes of obtaining a rating (ATP), but not for the purposes of satisfying SERVED as PIC requirements needed under pt. 135. And most airlines won't accept this as PIC time. Logging it under two columns probably isn't a horrible idea.

Clear as mud? I hate all this confusion between logging and acting. You really need to know how to work the system.

Well the inks still drying on the PPL and it took me 41.6 hours including the checkride. So very low time pilot :)

Ah, well you have ways to go, and contacts to make!

Log Dual Recieved if the other pilot has an ATP - FAR 61.167

You know I love the way we can just do things to get around FAA rules. Imagine an auto pilot on makes you cant log and auto pilot off you can log. I would wonder what difference it makes cause either way the SIC is there. I guess its just the FAA.

they do have some wierd rules and I could provide a perfect example but this thread would become long.