Part 135 Operation question
 

Ok....I am seriously looking into starting a part 135. Earlier I questioned the aircraft type for the operation and got alot of useful answers.

I have did alot of research on this but what I really need to know is the different types of certificates. I know there is ondemand as well as scheduled. If you are an ondemand operator can you operate on a schedule? And if you are a scheduled operator is it imperative that you stick to that schedule?

If I get a basic cert I would prefer to hire another pilot to help in the operation. Right now I am in the process of leaving the part 121. For me it seems like a hard transition after operating there so long. Any input is appreciated.

The scheduled 135 would be like Cape-Air where you have an open schedule and offer it more on a ticket basis. If you are just doing the standard hauling business people around, it's all unscheduled. I believe you can design your OpSpecs to allow for mainly unscheduled, but XX amount of hours scheduled(seen this in Michigan). I also understand it will take you at least a year to get this together if you're lucky.

1) Scheduled operations include passenger operations in which the departure location and time and the arrival location are offered in advance by the operator. Scheduled operations can also carry cargo. However, an all-cargo operation is defined as nonscheduled.

NOTE: Scheduled operations do not include public charter operations under 14 CFR part 380.

2) Nonscheduled operations include:

a) Passenger carrying operations in which the departure time and the departure and arrival locations are specifically negotiated with the customer or the customer’s representative

b) All-cargo operations

c) Scheduled passenger operations in aircraft (other than turbojet-powered airplanes) that have 9 or fewer passenger seats and 7,500-pound payload or less that operate with a frequency of less than 5 round trips a week on at least one route between two or more points according to a published flight schedule


This information can be found in your Principle Operator Inspector (POI) guidebook the The Flight Standards Information Manual 8900.10 Search it on Faa.gov then click on Air Operators and read it. This is the guideline book they use to certify you and it will answer any question you have.

You would be better off being unscheduled and transitioning to a scheduled operation if you wish after being certified. Don't forget once you are scheduled operator that flight is leaving regardless of how many people are in the seats, which can be costly until you are sure there is a solid market for a certain route.

I think you are going the right route by being a basic operator because depending on how long you've been 121 you should be able to qualify as DO and chief pilot.

Just so you are aware depending on your FSDO this process can take you anywhere between 6month to 18months to complete.


Best of luck to you.

Almost forgot... Don't forget to goto the faa.gov click airline certification - and download the 135 zip file. This will have a sample GOM and training manual all you have to do is change the headers and fill in the blanks. let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks alot Natlaicharters. I found a wealth of resources in that zip file. I am currently going through it and reviewing the regs in 119 & 135. Seems complicated when you are not used to it but its getting simpler as I continue to read. The process does seem like it will take a while.:D

Not a problem... It does get a lot easier as you read I recertified our company a couple years a go and and had to go through the same stuff. Be sure to read that 8900.10 too pertaining to certification it will make it go a lot smoother with the feds when you meet with them.

I recommend reading 8900 as well, look it up on the FAA website and read it and disect volume 2 on certification of an air carrier.

I think Quest Diagnositics handles a lot of the medical diagnostics services and I know they have a fleet of C310s and Barons that run week nights. Not sure if Airnet is in that arena as well or not, I would guess so.

Certification

Flight Standards Information System (FSIMS)

Volume2

Enjoy :D

There's a lot of information to go through when setting up a 135 certificate. Between FAR 119, 135, 8900, TSA crap, etc, etc, etc... you'd be well served to find someone who is experienced in 135 ops to act as a consultant. Best of luck to you.

Question
 

Where are what type of 135 operation are you trying to establish. A lot of places out there already have 135 certs and you could add your airplanes on to current rather than creating your own. Which someone said already takes a long time.

Sorry for the late reply gentlemen. I was out on a long trip. Well I feel like I am back in college again with all the information I have been going through and reseaching. I am really having to do my research here.
SiouxYeahYeah I have been looking into partnering with someone who already has a part 135 but so far I haven't recieved and replies. I am looking into putting the aircraft under a part 135 just have to find the right one and in the right location. Still have to look into that and see how it will work out for us.
I appreciate all the replies. Keep em coming. Sometimes I wish it was like getting a driver's lic. This is like trying to interview for the FBI or CIA.:D

Hello,

I sure wish you lots of luck and patience with your endeavor. It took me 17 months to get a single pilot operating certificate. With the requirement of having an aircraft, insurance, etc. before even being able to start operations, I blead to death financially. The end result was that after three years of struggling to get established, I ended up having to sell my 206 amphib and return my OpsSpecs and certificate to the FAA.:(

But, don't let that discourage you.

You will also be require to address sections of Part 43 (Aircraft Maintenance), Part 61 (Pilot Certification & Training), and Part 91 (VFR/IFR operations, etc) in you Letter of Compliance and/or Operations Manual. The other big stumbling block is finding a reasonably priced aircraft that will past an FAA Conformity Check as well as meeting calendar time age (in addition to flight service hours) on the engine(s), props, and governors. :confused:, yet?

You will need to have a current Drug Testing/Alcohol Abuse Program in place with the training manuals etc written and approved by the FAA. You will need to decide whether you are going to carry or not carry hazmat and have the appropriate training and hazmat manuals written and approved.

A word to the wise, try to find an established operator, that has a similiar operation to that which you want to start, and get friendly enough with them that they would let you review their operations manuals. That will help you get the phraseology that the FAA wants to see. Hopefully you will be assigned a certification team that will work very close with you. Mine didn't and everytime I called to get direction I recieved a bunch retoric about how undermanned and underfunded they were and that I should feel privileged that they would even talk to me.

Anyway, hope this helps!......Remember, wheel planes are only good for one water landing and no takeoffs!:eek:

Hey Floatplanepilot,

I really appreciate all the info you just passed along with me. Actually you provided a bit more info that wasnt mentioned before and that I haven't come across yet.

SO far I have made many contacts to buy certificates from sellers and that would be the fastest and easiest way to get in the market. Currently working on the Ops manual and specs, training requirements, insurance, etc. I am having headaches as I am sure everyone else did and I am learning so much I wonder if my brain will retain it all. I have a few friends who are forloughed or have been let go that I plan to bring into this. They are very high time most in excess of 4000 TT.

My main concern was the clientelle and making a profit in the market. I really didn't realize how many friends I had with major contacts however and now I have a potential market integrating my part 135 into there businesses.

I heard alot about spending huge amounts of money on aircrafts. I have a team that specializes in that and will find me the best possible aircraft with low time as well. My investors have the money and are behind me all the way. It just to get the ball rolling.

You mentioned the aircraft has to meet calender time age as well as flight service hours on engine, props and governors. Could you shed some more light on that for me. I think I know what you're talking about but just to be sure.

Love your signiture quote by the way.

Hey cpatterson19,

Glad the info was helpful. Yep, I had more headaches during the FAA certification process than I have ever had before or since. Purchasing an existing LLC/Corporation certificate holder is by far the easiest way to go(but costly), be careful, make sure that the business ops manuals and opsspecs are all up to date and that the opsspecs allow the type of operations that you want to provide. Of course, the opsspecs can be taylored to meet your requirements and thats where a good POI can help. What I'm trying to get at is that you could find that the ops manual and opsspecs might require extensive re-writing and that could be a lengthy process during which time you will not be allowed to operate on the certificate. An aquaintance that has a large helo operation bought a fixed wing operation that had a PC12, well, it ended up costing him $78k a month for 13 months while the plane sat in the hangar as the paper was re-written to approved FAA standards. It was a financial nightmare come true.

As to the calendar times (not to be confused with TBO times) required in Part 135 operations; for piston powered aircraft, the engine(s) must have been installed new or had a major overhaul within the previous 12 years and be within manufactors TBO time(s).

Say you have found a single engine 1980 Whizbang that has 2000 actt, 400 smohe, 400 spoh for only $80K. Sounds good ,huh? Well, the problems start when research shows the engine & prop/gov was overhauled in 1995, 14 yrs ago, now 2 yrs past engine calendar time and 7-9 yrs past prop calendar time, even though they are within manufactors TBO times. The engine will need to have a major overhaul or a new engine installed, so there goes $24-40K and another $3.5K for the prop/gov.

Now the props, if a McCauley; Macs have to be overhauled every five years or 1700 hrs whichever comes first, same with the governors. Hartzell props/govs are required to be overhauled every 7 yrs or 2000 hrs, whichever comes first.

As I mentioned this is for piston powered aircraft. There are Part 135 in service calendar times times for turboprop & jet engines too. You'll need to consult a PMI on these points.

Hope this helps as well!......Remember, wheel planes are only good for one water landing and no takeoffs!

Well I was looking at a basic 1 aircraft single pilot ops but with my the contract opportunity I am negotiating there may be need for a larger operation. will be based in MSP and mainly charter and no cargo at all.

We are looking at purchasing a certificate and filling the positions on the certificate as well as adding our airplanes to it. Still looking at the legal ramifications for that.

My main concern is to have everything up and running efficiently and according to FAA guidelines.:cool:

There is already an abundance of charter avilable in the MSP area. I can think of 10 operators in a 60 mile area right off the top of my head.

Cherry Air, a cargo charter outfit operating 20-series Lears and Falcon 20s recently filed for bankruptcy. Rumor is the certificate is for sale, and if it's true, you might get a good deal. Kenny Donaldson, President (972) 248-1707.

Wow man, the 135 your putting together seems alot more complex then my sight seeing idea. Thanks for the advice and best of luck to you with your ops.

That certificate is in TX, and transferring a certifcate with making it an all passenger operations is like starting a whole new certificate.
Everything is for sale, even my soul, but I seriously doubt they are selling it for a reasonable price.

cpatterson19 check your pm's. I'm DO of a part 135 and think I can help you.

If you are even thinking of starting a Part 135 certificate the first thing you need to do is get your application in, these things go in order received and in South Florida for example they are running over a year to even get started with the certification process.

Also, the down turn of the economy could be a bonus for you, there are companies going under everyday and you should be able to pick up a basic operating certificate pretty cheap. The regs kind of say you can't "buy" an airline certificate but there are ways around that. Plus, since you only want a simple single pilot operation you can be the CP and DO with your experience in 121 the FAA should have no grief with that.

If you find yourself really confused down the road there are many consulting companies out there that will help expedite the process with the knowledge and contacts they have.

Hope this helps.

Keep in mind that the charter industry is very fragmented. There are mom and pops operations operating all over the country with one or two airplanes. You can't compete with the guy who has 25 airplanes scattered throughout the country, ready to repo a short leg on a minute's notice. If you start a charter operation, you need a large amount of local business. Otherwise your rate to repo from Augusta, GA to TEB, then fly some dude to MDW, then repo back to home... your rate will not be competitive. And if you break along the way, you've got no backup. Unless you have identified a market niche in your local economy, you are setting yourself up for a miserbable experience to cost you much much money.

Yes, I am the guy who knows everything and quite literally invented the charter industry with two Wright Flyers back in 1910.

Excellent information on this thread.

Last year I was inspired by taking a local scenic float plane ride. Of course the flight itself was a great experience as I have not been in a GA aircraft for years. However, the inspiring aspect of the experience is that the fellow running the show was pretty young, early 30s. I am the same age. So here he is, owner of his own plane, and I only guess that his little operation is profitable, or if nothing else, pays for itself. I don't have the luxury that he does. I can't be a pt135 owner/operator because I am an airline guy.

So it got me thinking. How could I do something similar? I am in the initial stages of researching 135 Ops. This thread, and a few other threads here at APC got me off to a good start. However, I am having a hard time deciphering the different types of 135 ops between the simple owner(1 aircraft)/operator 135 and the full blown scheduled 135 operations. Is there an arrangement that would allow me to have one small single, and hire one or two pilots? I am not looking to go the Director of Ops / Director of Mx / Chief Pilot route.

What do I need to know if I "add-on" myself and my aircraft to a current 135 operation? How would an individual such as myself go about finding a willing participant? How are costs and profits typically shared in this type of arrangement?

I am still a year or two out from doing anything, however, I am taking everyone's advice and getting started early as it seems it is a long process.

Thanks for your help!

Can the same company have multiple certificates? i.e. have a 135 non scheduled, 135 scheduled and 121 operating certificate? all at once?

My understading in this issue is that you get whatever you want as long as you can prove the feds that you can do it safely and that you follow and meet all their requirements. I was involved in a 121 supplemental, but, we also had authorization for some schedule flying. Having a good relationship with your POI (Primary Operations Inspector) makes the BIG difference.

You can definetly have 2 different certificates, but remember that the airplanes can be only for specific certificate. They cannot be in different OPS SPECS...

Hope that helps...:)

Yes, that does help. I'm interested in doing some 135 on demand operations as well as scheduled service within the mid west and east coast regions. I'm looking at the feasibility aspect as well as the cost. You're saying that the same airplane couldn't do both, right since there would be two separate op specs? I'd have to operate two different airplanes then one for 135 and one for 121? Correct me if I'm wrong, but new carriers can no longer operate under scheduled 135.