Abuse of duty rules in On-Demand Part 135
 

Hello,
I've worked 135 since 2004. Ya I know....anyway the last 2 years I worked for a company that did 12 hour shifts with one week out of the month 24/7 single pilot.

Recently I got hired by another company working 12 hour shifts then, 4 months latter...you guessed it. They told us no more 12 hour shifts we are going to first up second up. Basically on call 24/7. Yay!!!!:rolleyes

If people knew their airline pilot was up since 8am was unable to nap in the afternoon and then at 11pm got a call for a flight and flew 4 long distance legs at 8.5 block time and had a 13.5 hour duty day they would never want to fly that airline again.

I wonder how long the FAA will allow this for passenger flights? Does anybody have any idea?

Thanks

The FAA doesn't allow this. There is no such thing in 135 as "rolling rest." You are required to have a defined rest period, and it must be defined ahead of time. Plus, the onus is also on the pilot. It is illegal for you to accept such an assignment if it violates the FARs.

Agreed with Toonces. See FAR 135.267
FAR Part § 135.267: Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews -- FAA FARS, 14 CFR

Furthermore, if you are required to answer the phone you are not resting. Period full stop. This is supported by numerous FAA legal opinions and your operator is in serious noncompliance. If this is a dirtbag operation (and aren't they all), your best bet to bring them into compliance and still preserve your job is to call and report them via the FAA Safety Hotline. Right now. 1-866-TELL-FAA. If you try to argue with the company directly you will probably be given the runaround and then when you end up reporting them, your boss will know it was you, and you can expect retribution.

http://www.nata.aero/data/files/abj/...ations_abj.pdf

"the FAA has said that for a “rest period” to be legal it must be: 1) continuous, 2) determined prospectively (i.e. known in advance) and 3) free from all restraint from the certiicate holder, including freedom from work or freedom from the present responsibility for work should the occasion arise."

Ya I've had that memorized for years. That's not the topic here. It's called a 24 hour look back with 10 hours of rest.

We have uninterrupted rest. Still not the topic.

Read 2 and 3 in the statement you quote, if you disagree then good luck in your hellhole of a job.

You started this topic to complain about how the FAA allows 24/7 on call. It's the thread title! The FAA does not allow this. I do not understanding your combative response. If you are on call 24/7 your operator is illegal. If you don't know your rest period ahead of time or do not have any "scheduled" rest your operator is illegal. If you are required to answer the phone during your scheduled rest your operator is illegal. I don't know how to make it any more plain. You need to know when your rest period is *ahead of time*. There is no look back, no rolling rest, nothing even remotely resembling what you described in your original post. What you described is a blatant violation.

135.267 section d
After a flight you get 10 hours of rest then your back on call.
Mostly on demand cargo companies do this but some med evac companies do too.
I can list a few. Alliance out Denten,TX. Berry Aviation. IFL, Lynden Air Cargo, etc.
Some of the fractionals do this too.

And I wasn't trying to be combative I was just surprised that no one that responded had heard of this.

(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.

"Precedes" means before. You must have 10 hours of rest BEFORE you begin your shift.

Rest means that you are free from all duty. This includes answering your phone. If you are required to answer your phone, you are not on rest.

[QUOTE=av8n;1834268]135.267 section d
After a flight you get 10 hours of rest then your back on call.
Mostly on demand cargo companies do this but some med evac and fractionals do too.

I agree and hence the term look back.

So, if you are on call and must answer your phone, you would not get your rest, so it is not legal. Period.

You MUST know that you are on rest. You can not be told that something was rest after the fact. You must be relieved of all duties and told that you are on rest BEFORE the rest begins, not after it has happened.

It's a gray area and many operators do this. I was just trying to find out if it would be phased out in 135 anytime soon. I guess no one knows and that's fine.

It is absolutely NOT a gray area. The FAA is very clear about this. It is 100% illegal. There have been many interpretations about this.

It is pretty obvious that you are trolling. If not, please consider that besides the fact that you are possibly endangering peoples lives, you are breaking a FAR every time that you accept a shift without properly documented rest. They may not assign, and you may not accept. You are both responsible.

You seem to be under the impression that we are not understanding the situation you are describing. We understand it perfectly well. There's a lot of experience on this board and we are telling you flat out that it's illegal. It's not a gray area. It's not a matter of interpretation. It's illegal. Just because some dirtbag operations do it doesn't make it legal. I've worked for some of those dirtbags, they like to read creative interpretations into the regs. But from the FAA's perspective this is established and has been for decades. Did you read the article I posted? Operators *and* pilots have been violated for doing *exactly* as you describe. Every time you accept an assignment under such a system you are putting your certificate and very future at risk. Believe that.

Here is a link to just one such legal interpretation from the FAA. There are many. It couldn't be any clearer.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

Here's another good one. They specifically mention how you, the crewmember, are in violation:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

I see......

Everyone has heard of it. It's illegal. It's done all the time throughout the 135 and 121 supplemental world. Companies argue that it's not illegal because they don't get violated. Lack of enforcement doesn't mean its not illegal.

I was misguided. I knew the regs. Had them memorized all that good stuff. Just as I said misguided and thought that's just the way it was. I always knew it should be illegal and couldn't figure out why it wasn't.

Now I understand.

And no I wasn't "trolling"

Find out who your Certificate Management Office is (FAA) and tell them about it. They will be looking to put a stop to it, you can even remain anonymous if you wish.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

See 1B

The beer test works in this situation. When can you have a beer?

Do you? Because you seem to be defending the very thing that you are accusing the FAA of "imposing" on you when in fact they are not.

Companies can roll your rest and duty meaning you can go on 10 hours of rest, immediately start duty, then in 14 hours go back on rest. Nothing illegal on that as long as the company complies with the 13 days every calendar quarter off. What is not legal, is keeping you "on call" for days at a time with no time off. As previously said, the FAA is very black and white on this issue, there is no grey area!!! It makes my skin crawl every time I hear the term grey area with regard to duty and rest. You don't even need to look back, that's how simple it is. If you are coming off of rest, you have 14 hours of duty, then you are off for 10 hours, it doesn't get more simple than that.

Sure. As long as the "on call" period does not exceed 14 hours, and then another 10 hour rest period starts. As others have said, if you have to answer the phone, you are not resting. And if they call you 12 hours into that on-call period, then only have 2 hours before you have to be back in rest.

At least up until 2006 the San Antonio and San Diego FSDOs permitted us to operate 24/7 with three stipulations:

- the company was prohibited from providing or requiring the pilots have a pager etc.
- the pilots were never REQUIRED to answer ANY page or call
- a pilot could decline any flight if in his/her own mind felt he/she had not gotten a 10 hour rest period suitable for the expected duty period

I was on the conference call with our POI (SAT FSDO) and chief pilot when this ruling/opinion/blessing was given.

What has happened since then, I have no idea.

FSDO's and POI's have no authority to set policy. They are supposed to enforce it. They don't make rulings. Their "blessing" or "opinion" means squat. The scenario you describe is blatantly illegal. "Not required to answer the phone"... yeah right. Simple experiment, don't answer the phone for a week and then call and see if you still have a job. And whether you "feel" rested is irrelevant unless you intend to report fatigued. Rest has a legal definition and a legal recordkeeping requirement. At any one moment an FAA inspector should be able to ask the company whether any particular pilot is resting or not, and when they went on rest, and when they where notified that they where on rest.

The only reason this kind of abuse continues is because the pilot groups allow it to happen. If the POI is in collusion with the company or ignorant of the rules then you go over their heads. REPORT IT. Send copies of the FAA legal interpretations to the FSDO. Those are binding, they have zero authority to ignore them. Call the 866-TELL-FAA number. Call the certificate management office. Cannot be emphasized enough. If people make a stink this abuse will go away.

THIS times 1,000!

Any good examples how to comply with these rules in a small outfit? Say 6 pilots and 2-3 airplanes. Just wondering how people have done this legally.

We had 5 airplanes and maybe 11 pilots (single pilot capable, two pilot preferred - we frequently couldn't bid if we couldn't provide two pilots). It was pretty simple. We were on duty from 8 am - 10 pm every day. If nothing came up, we were released by 3 or 4 or so. If we had a flight known ahead of time that was earlier or later, our rest was adjusted to reflect that (ahead of time). We got 1 hard day off per week, and 1 soft day off. During known busier times (Th,Fr,Sun), we would have an extra crew or two cover a later/earlier period for pop-ups.

Rest must be scheduled per the regulations. Anything else is illegal.

I am not sure what you mean. It doesn't matter how many planes or pilots you have. You do it legally... 6 pilots and 3 airplanes poor manning. 2 planes and 6 pilots, you give each pilot 10 days off a month, 2 at a time (assuming the 2 planes are the same, either way, crew it 3 pilots per plane) and you give them predetermined duty and legal rest.

This is the way to do it. Most charters give you at least 10 hours of heads up, so you can put a crew on rest. Most pop up charters for passengers are during daytime hours so you have your crews on duty in the day and resting at night. Freight you might want to do it the other way around. If the business really depends on "pop up" charters at all hours of the day and night (air ambulance for example) then you are going to need more crews and do rotations, no other way around it. If the business can't afford to hire that many pilots then it doesn't have a viable business model and should go under. Safe and legal are the minimum barriers to entry, if you can't do it safe and legal then you don't do it.

Thanks for the responses. Was just curious how others have gone about it besides the standard 12/12 with 2 pilots.

Nice work, Ackattacker. Miss your debating skills on the "other" forum.

Nothing has changed since the legal opinion was issued by FAA General Counsel. POIs are doing this all over the place despite the fact that the FAA General Counsel has published their ruling and reaffirmed it time and again and creating loopholes like mentioned above is in contradiction to that. A POI saying it's ok if you do X, Y, and Z doesn't possess that power. Anytime you accept an assignment when you've had no notice of your 10 hr rest window starting is risking your certificate even if you can say you've had a solid 12 hrs sleep prior to notification. Who knows when the FAA will be sitting on your ramp at the end of a 14 hr day asking for a flight manifest and to explain how long you've been on call prior.

This is directly from the chief counsel after I asked if FSDOs had any leeway in enforcing the interpretations. It is not a gray area.

"Legal interpretations issued by AGC-200 are binding interpretations of
existing regulations, although they are somewhat fact specific and may not
be directly on point to a particular situation. They are not simply the
opinions of a particular attorney, but rather represent the official legal
position of the FAA's Office of the Chief Counsel, who is tasked with
interpreting the agency's regulations. As such, FSDOs do not have the
latitude to ignore them. Should you get continued pushback from a
particular FSDO, please ask the manager of the FSDO to reach out to his or
her regional counsel or to my office for clarification.

Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel for International
Law, Legislation and Regulations
AGC-200
Federal Aviation Administration"

Was just going through the recent letters of interpretation and found one from February 2015 that addresses answering your phone while on rest and whether the letters are binding on the FSDOs. Thought it was appropriate to link it to this thread.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

Here are the two main points:

"To sum up, based on the Kidd interpretation a certificate holder operating under part 135 cannot require a pilot to answer a phone call from the certificate holder during a rest period."

"A legal interpretation issued by the Office of the Chief Counsel is the FAA's official position concerning the meaning of a statute, regulation, or other legal requirement. The FAA has previously stated that "[v]alidly adopted legal interpretations issued by the Regulations Division of the Office of the Chief Counsel are coordinated with relevant program offices at FAA Headquarters and have FAA-wide application." Because a legal interpretation constitutes an official FAA position that has FAA-wide application and because a FSDO is part of the FAA, a legal interpretation issued by the Office of the Chief Counsel is binding on the FSDO."

Thank you to all who contributed. However, these regs are violated daily by most 135 operators like the one I currently work for. We often fly one leg go to the hotel and some times sit for days. Then in the middle of the night or day we are called for an "ASAP" trip. For said trip we are expected to hustle and get the airport in an unrealistically short ammount of time. All the while having never been notified when we were on or off duty. Oh and by the way if you want a beer you have to call and ask for permission. Guess what the answer always is?
The long into short is: many operators have been pulling this crap for a long time without any consequences. Why is that.?