350 hours TT, Now What?
 

Man I can always rely on you to give something to look foreword to...haahaha

I don't think I could see my self doing anything else. I think the thing that gets to people now a days are the people who tell you to stop *****ing and take your lumps and get a job flying checks......CHECKS? ok I am 22 and the only reason I have checks is to pay my rent. there are things called debit cards now the check industry went away a long time ago.

Then the witty come back is then go do night cargo.

Ok night cargo with two pilots is gone. That is unless you pay for your right seat time...WHICH IS A GIANT NONO....YOU WILL BE PUNISHED IF YOU DO THIS...so again we are back at the issue of what do you do when you have 350 hours and a shiny new degree. I had a couple right seat caravan gigs that I know about and I am definitely willing to take one if it is available just so I can get to the time requirements needed to start doing some PIC work. I will make 1100 a month and eat a quarter of a ramen packet for breakfast, lunch, and Dinner plus that last quarter you keep for when you get delayed and the airport burger is to expensive.

I think that everyone here has some great Ideas for what people can do but I do not believe that I am downgrading this profession by wanting to do something that I love. How many of you can honestly say that if you had just gotten out of college had no financial obligations like kids or a wife and the only way you were going to get your career started was to take a job that paid 17.5K you would say no because your morals or whatever it is wouldn't let you. If i got a call from a regional tomorrow and they said heres a job FO on a regional jet and you will make 17.5K a year and I say I am sorry but that isn't enough. they aren't going to say oh well our mistake the number is really 25K a year...no they are going to say ok and offer it to the guy they interviewed afterwards.

I understand that this isn't enough I would much rather be making the 40K my girl makes working as an assistant front desk manager but I love flying and this is the way the industry is. I would love to change it but I am not going to pass up a job because of it. Yeah I will have to live with 6 guys in small apartment that will probably be upstairs from a guy who cooks meth but you never know 5 years down the road I might be fine making an ok salary and doing what I love plus I will have some fun stories to tell. Look on the sunny side guys your all doing something that you enjoy...would you rather be workign at the front desk of a hotel?

Not an attack at you crabinow16...more towards our generation.

RESEARCH!!! I went through a college flight school and all those guys knew, or though about, was a particular regional. They all whined about instructing, while they passed up jobs at places like AirNet/Flight Express/Ram Air, or any other job not instructing (back when even with 1200 hrs you couldn't get a job at the regionals). So they went on instructing and complaining about making 1k/month and only getting about 30-50 hours a month. They were all so closed minded and to lazy to research all the other job opportunities out there. So when I brought up freight, aerial mapping/photography, banner towing, traffic watch, flying jumper, etc...they all scoffed. One of my buddies took note, instructed during the school year and spent his summers breaks dragging banners up and down the beach. So when he graduated he had >1500 hours vs. closed minded instructors <600ish. He even managed to scrounge up >100 hours multi from the contacts he made towing banners. He got a night freight job and worked his way up to left seat in a lear before most of his college classmates finished their first year at a regional.

So when people whine about no ways of getting hours it makes me laugh! There are ways of getting time, even in todays economy, you just have to do research, make calls and not be afraid to move out of your current environment.

[Rant]
The problem with going to a 141 school and subsequently instructing there, is you make no contacts. All the good ones that are local have already been found out, so now you're just waiting for the guys ahead of you to move on so you can get your piece of the pie. We even had a instructor that had ~1800 TT/ ~400 Multi, who would take almost all the multi students. Thus, not give the lower MEI's a chance to get the 100 multi hours need to get on at a regional. He stayed because he was sure that X regional would call any day....they finally did, after about 10 MEI's below him had already PAID for their 100 multi hours. I wanted to kick that guy square in the junk every day! But he is shinning example of what is wrong with our industry today.....he had his!
[/rant]

Love flying
 

Love flying, but remember to love yourself more. Your career should be about compensation not fun. Save that for the weekends. Start now on your plan "B" because eventually the fun wears off and all you are left with is a crummy profession.

Skyhigh

P.S. All that is really going to be out there for new pilots is the 17.5K jobs. After you have been a struggling CFI for a few years it will begin to look pretty good.

Epic fail... So you think you are ready for the airlines at 350TT? Please I don't have much more time than you and I know that I wouldnt be much more than a flap and gear monkey instead of a required crewmember.

Pay to play
 

As pilots we all pay for our careers. Some in cash others in wasted years of their lives. It starts with college and flight training then miserable years of low wage high risk pilot jobs to build experience. All with few guarantees of anything.

What if all that separated you was another $10,000? No more risk, rejections or doubts. Just a 10K check and the class date at the major airline of your dreams. Would you do it?

Skyhigh

Hopefully there will be less guys like you who will accept these DEPLORABLE conditions. Less guys means pay will go up, and conditions will get better.

Student starts are WAY down. That's good, because, honestly, if the USA didn't make a single additional commercial pilot this year, THERE ARE STILL TOO MANY !

The 1500 / ATP should help. It will be very competitive to get from 350 TT to 1500. I'm not convinced that the rule won't ultimately be sabotaged with exceptions for guys like you with something similar to your current qualifications.

The retirement boom of Dec 2012 should help to open up the top end of the profession. However, I don't think we'll ever get to the part where starting wages will be anything but deplorable, because I believe that no matter what the conditions, guys will continue to "pursue their lifelong dream, 'cuz they can't imagine doing anything else".

For you, unless you accept what the industry has to offer, you need to find another industry.

There will be plenty. At least until the 1500 hour rule kicks in. Then the airlines will be completely out of gas. It's going to be interesting to see how they handle it.

Even when the 1500hr rule kicks in, there are still a ton of guys on the street with 3500/4000hrs plus. And they still need jobs as much as the guy does with 1500hrs. The only thing that will ever change the pay rates is if ALL pilots stand together and tell the regionals to F.O. with their poverty level wages, or get the governmebt to step in and say "this is what they need to make!"

Niether of the two will never happen. So either accept it, or move on.

I really love this subject of let's blame the woe's of the industry on someone, anyone. It must be the in coming generation and their willingness to accept "sub-standard compensation". Or the Old-timers and the lack of giving up their seats, or hogging all the riches of the company.
A friend of mine and I started our careers together. He went airline, I took the cargo and then corporate. Today at this point we both make the same pay. He took the 20K a year first year FO, I took the 32K freight dog job. Probably even 6 years into our profession I may have grossed more overall. But at the regionals he will get higher pay faster and will probably end up making more in the long run. That's ok, because all you can do is make your decisions and do your best. Then the rest is up to life. I agree that minimum requirements should be set for 121 ops. Do I think it will raise pay? Probably not. But to sit here and blame the next generation for the low wages at airlines is kind of hypocritical. The first place you probably might look is at the unions.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/images/smilies/clap.gifhttp://forums.jetcareers.com/images/smilies/clap.gifhttp://forums.jetcareers.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

I never said it was a good system. I agree with what you say. Unfortunately, it has always been there, in any job, and is not about to go away. I am in my 38th year of flying and, believe me, I know.

Now What?
 

Ok...quick spiel; 350 commercial single/multi/inst, CFI/CFII, Bachelor Degree in Aviation Studies. 50 PIC in a King Air 90. Now that I am at this point, I find myself unemployed. The university I graduated from doesn't have open positions. I will relocate ANYWHERE for the right job. I will not relocate right now for just any job. What would you do? I opened a profile on findapilot.com and I am willing to pay for pilot profiles on other sites, but I am having a hard time deciphering what are good jobs and what are scams as well as discriminating between pilot job boards that are worthy of my dollars or just BS. Opinions? Success stories? What would you do?

im about the same and work at best buy. i hope to pick up a cfi job soon... i feel for you. good luck

Get a real job not one flying using spare money buy a 150 with a friend. Fly on the side and do some side instruction. Having a real job you can pay your debt down and have plenty to fly on the side. Wait for the times to change.

Join the Club...we have 2349095 members looking for jobs with well over your times...

I have ATP mins and am barely getting any bites

Yeah that is what I'm experiencing too. Had a few interviews and waiting for a position to open up....if that makes sense.

You should have got a real degree so you could get a good job even while building hours. Apparently you didn't research much before you started.

OP:

Do you have a CFI? If not, get one. If yes, start using it.

Quit acting like the world owes you anything because they don't. Graduating school with 350TT is your own fault so you should just own it and accept the fact that you'll be working a crappy job in the industry for awhile. Yes, I too graduated from Purdue a couple years ago. I had 1000/85 when I left campus. If the airlines were hiring at the time I'm sure I would have been in great shape, but since the industry tanked the year I left I'm still CFIing and now have about 2000TT.

Sure, sometimes I hate my life and wish I chose to do something else, but until I actually take the leap and leave the industry or get a better flying gig, I keep my head down and keep plugging away because complaining on the internet won't get you anywhere.

I'm interested where you got 50 King Air PIC with such low time and what happened that you aren't still there. That must have been a dream situation for a low time pilot. Did the job have something to do with the college?

USMCFLYR

50 Hours PIC in a King Air at 350tt = Pilot Interacting with atC

either that or he stole a C90 and logged it as PIC... who in there right mind would let a guy with 350tt be a PIC on a king air unless the owner wanted it to crash so he could collect on the insurance.

I think Perdue has some kind of program where students get kingair time, and something tells me that he was logging PIC while also receiving dual. Be very careful using PIC logged legally, but where you weren't the actual person who signed for the aircraft- particularly when looking for jobs. What's legal for the FAA (and useful for meeting MEI minimums, for example) can still look like you're trying to misrepresent your experience to perspective employers.

Quote:

USMCFLYR

50 Hours PIC in a King Air at 350tt = Pilot Interacting with atC

either that or he stole a C90 and logged it as PIC... who in there right mind would let a guy with 350tt be a PIC on a king air unless the owner wanted it to crash so he could collect on the insurance.

Lol hilarious, yup pic in a king air with 350tt my a$$, I could just see a CP
Asking a systems question, this would be the reply :confused::confused::confused:

Well smarty, if he came from a school like I did, he took a ground school course which covered King Air Operations and systems, and he has a full King Air Manual. I'm guessing he'd probably do pretty well with systems questions on a King Air. "Tell me about a time" questions would be a bit more difficult.

If there is anyone out there interviewing who doesn't realize that (excepting a wealthy person flying their own aircraft) a 300 hour pilot probably isn't flying the King solo - then they are just to stupid to be let out in public. Of course they know he wasn't the only pilot in the A/C - they probably also understand the sort of program he came from and give due credit. News flash - no one "signs" for the aircraft under Part 91. It's under 12,500#, and he was sole manipulator - he can log PIC (what the insurance company requires doesn't count in this case).

If he indeed came from a good program, he was indeed manipulating the controls and doing a lot more than just "interacting with ATC." Is he ready to go operate a King Air solo - no, but give some credit where it's due.

On the other hand, I agree with those who've commented that at the end of 4 years in aviation studies you should have found ways to at least double if not triple or more the total time you have. That would be one of my first questions in an interview - what were you doing all that time? He should have had Comm/Inst at the end of two years and tacked on ME & CFI shortly thereafter, which would leave two years of virtually no flying. That's what I'd want to hear the answer to (and there could be legitimate reasons, but that low TT is going to be very limiting).

Perdue has no such program - they sell chickens.

PERDUE® Chicken Recipes, Turkey Recipes, Tips and More

Purdue University on the other hand has had such a program for many years. Currently the program is changing with the re-fleeting, but that is a topic for another thread. To steal an excerpt from their website:

The History of Professional Flight Technology : About Us : Aviation Technology : Purdue University College of Technology : West Lafayette, Indiana

Bcrosier-

Are you the UPS MD-11 FO that came in to give a presentation in DP and JY's CRM class about 3 years ago? If so, you're the man!

That Be20 program is what made me the pilot I am today. I took things seriously up until that point, but it really nailed into me what it really takes. All the stuff you do the first two years at PU is fine, but that program really drove me to put it all together. That and the 727 sim were probably the two greatest things offered IMO. Some people still never realized what they were really getting out of it.

Nailed it!:cool:

Duly noted... :rolleyes:

Nope sorry, not the same one - I wish I could be that unhappy at my job and make that much money at it! :D I'm just a lowly ATA refugee, trying to make my way in the world.

DP & JY do run a good CRM class - I audited the class the first semester they taught it, and I got a lot out of it. It's been a good while since I've been back for a visit, but there are a lot of good people there doing good things. As someone else aptly put it, historically the program has given low time pilots some great tools to work with as they grow and gain experience. I hope that continues to be true with some of the changes they are making as they program continues to evolve.

Purdue is not where I graduated from, FYI. That's a factory...but they do make a good product.

That is an asinine comment. A bachelor degree in Aviation Studies is a real degree. Who forged your degree, genius? Have something serious to say in my thread or take your comments elsewhere. You are an example of the loopholes in the aviation community. Leadership and guidance is the spirit of my questions and all it harbors from you is sarcasm and ignorance. You should ground yourself.

I mean seriously, with all due disrespect, did Purdue require their students to be literate? Did you even read anything you are responding to or did you have a case of verbal diaherra?

You hate your life? Seriously? Well, maybe you aren't of good moral character and in that case, you will never qualify for an ATP so that's good for the rest of us. Thanks for hating yourself.

Why ask if I am a CFI? The first sentance says I am a CFI/CFI-I and I am not complaining about the industry...I am asking people what their experience has been with websites such as findapilot or climbto350...etc...frickin genius.

Try reading.

Who would love to shoot approaches to mins with this guy? Who forged your 8710?

Sorry about the delay in my response.


Good question. Back in 2004 when I was a 50 hour private pilot, I enrolled in an advanced turbine training academy in DeLand, FL. It was all Part61 training. Our instructors were furloughed airline guys and a couple of our sim instructors were moonlighting (Chautauqua FO's).

We had a month of intensive ground school covering systems, limitations, turbines...etc...it was taught by a retired United DC-10 captain. We had a BE200 Sim which we recieved a month of training. EP's, normal profiles, and we basically learned how to transition. It was comprehensive. It was a great education.

It was a huge learning curve. So after 2 months of ground/sim training, out to the practice area we went. After about 15 hours of dual, I passed my practical exam with the Feds for my private multi add on. The remaining hours accumulated during my commercial training and LOFT cross country's.

The place shut down in June 2005. That is an entirely different story.

I was a 50 hour private pilot when I first flew a King Air A/B 90.

Everyone has an opinion. Looks like you're no different.

Do you have anything smart to say? Like, my original thread asked questions about job boards. Do you have any best practices/worst practices when it comes to the job hunt or are you just going to mouth off about someone you've never flown with some more?

:D:cool: I haven't used those sites yet, but when you do please let me know, I'm in the same situation 350TT but no King Air time. I might get a gig next year in a E90 for now CFI-I....I heard Climbto350 is good but there are way too many pilots on the site

I anted up and decided to pay the 9.99 a month for access on findapilot.com. It's a good site but as far as the offerings for flight instructors are concerned, I find it limited. Hence, why I am asking for opinions on other sites.

I am a flight instructor, therefore paying 10 bucks a month for multiple sites means should I eat or should I look for a job. It's a tough decision.

61.51...logging PIC:
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

Blah Blah Blah

I don't think logging PIC time is as grey as you warned. As an instructor, I don't find that interpreting the reg is confusing.

2 cents...put it on my tab.

Thank you for your comments. An MEI was always on board the BE90. It was a thorough and comprehensive training program. See my comments to USMCFlyer regarding the program.

I appreciate your candor. I posted a question about quality websites because I am looking for instructor jobs and I got trashed by people who didn't even fully read my post. The criticism I took with this thread was so irrelevant. I wanted to give you props for your objectivity. Nicely done.

milehigh,

To answer your question (cause obviously no one else did), personally I use two free websites instead of pay sites:

US Pilot dot com (I tried to link it but it wouldn't work), you have to register but its free and jobs are added every couple days. Be careful though, as some are reused from a while ago and the actual job is long gone.

and

Pilot Job Update, this one is completely anonymous and no registration is required. It was developed and maintained by UND grad (I know... the enemy :)). Because a real person adds the jobs, you won't find any duplicates from old jobs. Another cool thing is that you can "like" it on facebook and you will see new job postings on your home page.

Good luck in your search!

I think some of that came from your "righteous" postings. Just sayin.


Edit to add: It takes a humble attitude, a decent post count and some experince to get respect in most aviation forums. No one knows you yet, so make sure your first impressions are good ones, not smart or snide.