Multi-Engine Time Building
 

If anyone around the NY/Long Island Area is looking to build some quality multi-engine time, please PM me. I have an excellent rate (I'm talking less than $100/person when FINAL costs have been halved) on a quality well maintained light twin.

Halved? How can you cut the costs in half?

He's probably talking about splitting with safety pilot time.

If so, be careful about logging all that...

I think the only way you log it as a "safety pilot" is to do it IFR (foggles) the whole, time, and you don't get to log all of it, you have to subtract 2 tenths for startup/shutdown, and another tenth unless you actually do zero/zero takeoffs, and another tenth for each landing.

But to split the costs, I don't think you can, legally, split the costs even if you have a safety pilot. Because the regs say (not an exact quote) that you have to both be "going that way" anyway, and then you can only split an "equal share" of the "actual expenses".

I don't think the FAA takes too kindly to splitting for training.

I suppose, if you're renting, that one of you could rent and pay one time, and the other would be the safety pilot, and the next time do it the other way around, but if it's not a rental, then you'd have to have insurance on the other pilot.

Yes, the only way to legally log safety pilot is to do it under the hood. There's no real rule for taking tenths off... essentially, if the pilot under the hood logged .5 of simulated instrument, that's how much safety pilot time YOU will log.

I've heard of plenty of guys who split a twin, take a trip, and don't do any hood time. They split the time evenly, each logging half the trip as safety time, and the other half as PIC. More power to them if they can find a way to explain all that safety pilot time in an interview...

Quality of flight time is to be considered as well. I know if I saw a candidate that had a lot of multi safety pilot time I would probably not take too much if any into consideration. A safety pilot essentially does nothing but look for traffic and employers know this. Just my .02 cents...

I personally have seen many people split a twin, fly it VFR with no actual paper history, both log it, then go get jobs at airlines and never ever look back. I never was even faced with this choice but I know a few who are wide body airline pilots 30 years later. It is def against the law, and noone should ever do this, but maybe this is what the OP was getting at.

Splitting the cost of building flight time by utilizing a safety pilot is a commonly accepted method of building experience in many collegiate flight programs/schools, including the one I attended. This practice has also been encouraged by all of the typically conservative designated examiners I have encountered. It is true that some of the total time of the flight must be deducted from the safety pilot's time due to run up, taxiing, landing, etc. Other than that, I believe flying approaches in a somewhat "fast" light twin with a safety pilot is valuable experience for both pilots. When I have acted as the safety pilot, I know that I was very involved in the flight environment (mostly mentally) and that I wasn't just there watching for traffic. Even when I wasn't at the controls I still gained some experience by paying close attention to the progress of each approach as we flew along. I would say that multi engine instructing would be best, but lets face it, that is not for everyone so I don't really see the big deal with splitting 80-100 hours with another pilot. If you really believe that a safety pilot time really is unvaluable, then what about single pilot time when the plane is on autopilot? When the plane is on autopilot you are nothing but a safety pilot "just looking for traffic," not? Flyheavy if you were closer to me I'd be interested, darn!

If either one of the pilots on board has a MEI it would make logging a lot easier.

What if one person is PIC and the other pilot isn't and they take turns doing this? I've heard some people say that if the hobbs meter is running, and they are being charged for it, they're logging it.

Just like others have said about other practices, I would say be careful with this one. An interviewer may see that you have 70 hours of Dual Given in multi engine airplanes, but 0 sign offs. They will get suspicious of that. Most people only need 10-15 hours to get their multi-engine add on.

Everybody is way over thinking this.

Sadly, illegal/questionable or not, this type of thing is going to be happening more often as the price of fuel/aircraft rental keeps rising and as hiring minimums go up.

I do agree however you would have to consider that time if you you didn't have a large pool of applicants to pick from.

Your right it will and that's just the way things are going to roll.

Right now we are seeing a drop in minimums actually. This might spur more people to do time building things, especially as multi-engine requirements drop. 500 hours ME I doubt anyone could afford, even if split. However, 100 multi engine split (especially if one already has 30-40) is a bit more manageable. The ATP rule is coming up which will drive minimums back up, but there is still some hiring that will occur between now and then.

We are still struggling with one of the worst recessions in quite a few years, yet already airlines are hiring and lowering their minimums. Eagle originally wanted 1000TT/200ME and they are already down to 800/100. And these are the hours people are getting hired at too (in this case, preferred = competitive)!

My multi is a little higher than most fresh out of training, but still short of the 100 hour mark. Considering once I got the 100 I would be at Eagle's min, it's mighty tempting. Unfortunately at this point in the game, I have a REAL hard time PAYING for hours when eventually I will be PAID to fly. So my morals are keeping me from doing it. Are they keeping me from getting a job? Yes (well I should say meeting the mins). Is this a good or bad thing? I'll let you know in a few years. Stay tuned!

And the reason we were talking about safety pilot time, is because what you are doing, unless it's as an MEI, it could only be safety pilot time, unless it was not legal. And if you're an MEI, offering "half off" prices, I'd be surprised...

I guess you've got me on a technicality there: it would still be safety pilot time, but in the hopes of spurning the interest of anyone who might be interested I'd figure I'd ask around (especially as "inexpensive" as it is); but that's not to say it couldn't still be made into, wait for it, quality time... compared to flying around in the pattern all day or taking the foreigner route and snoozing as soon as the hobbs starts ticking.

Sent you PM

you can also just find a CFII and have him give instrument instruction to you. He then logs Dual given/PIC and you can log Sole man. of controls PIC.

I know this in the low time section but as it was said before, definately over-thinking this.

And that technicality could be all it takes to lose your ticket. So I'd think twice about this.
If you split the costs and are not going some place where you were both going to be going anyway, then you are in violation of the regs and can be busted for it.
If you swap who rents the plane each trip, then you would be close to, but not completely halved, and technically it would be legal. However if someone from the FAA found out what you were doing, or if an interviewer discovered what you were doing, I think they'd probably have issues with it.
Don't just go with the opinions of those who've posted here, contact your FSDO and see what they say. If it's in your favor, you want it in writing.

Simple answer is just be smart about it. Don't try to "stretch" the regs, but you also don't have to study them for a doctorate.

I can't imagine anyone knowing where the 1/2 of the money came from. I can't imagine anyone from the FSDO really caring enough to find out if you properly divided the costs. They have better things to do then follow around 2 kids to see if the costs are all divided properly.

Now, I am also assuming you are just talking about flying around with one other person, building X-C time. Start loading up the plane with people and it might raise a few eyebrows.

Umm, I am guessing you never actually talked with a government worker. They will never give an answer other than quoting regs, never provide an interpretation (expect in support of a violation), and NEVER put it in writing.

Don't be so sure. During a random ramp check, they can (and many do) ask seemingly innocent questions which can get you violated.

true josh, but you would have to be really silly to say "oh, we are splitting the price of the plane legal or not". I would never engage in "random" chit chat during a ramp check. I also and well aware of what they can and cannot require you to answer without representation. If you even think that the the conversation is heading to "uncharted" territories, I would immediately shut up and contact a lawyer. Might be "jumping the gun" but better safe than sorry! AOPA has a "cheap" plane which would cover these occasions.

That said, I really don't think that there is a reg (well at least I can't think of the specific one) which prohibits spliting the costs of the plane for time building.

The issue is how the time in logged. Safety pilot is legit and legal, a CFII giving instrument is also legal, and a MEI giving dual should be no issue either.

As for the Regionals looking at the logs and saying "?" well that probably really depends on which regional and how bad they need people. As for Corporate, I would be willing to bet that a 100 or so hours wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. That is a legit way to get some time. it is common, and depending how seriously you take it; it can even be considered CRM training. I know i did some time building using a friends twin which I paid for gas only, and worked with another pilot to sharpen my CRM skills while flying to fun and exciting places.

MY POINT EXACTLY.
I was just a bit more sarcastic. Or at least tried to be.

Ramp check includes looking at your log books.
Safety pilot can be legit, but not for splitting the cost.
CFII - not sure he can instruct in an ME without MEI.
You only need one FAA examiner to read this thread and ...

As Scooter said, don't stretch the regs.

Obviously if you buy a block of 20 hours you both can't log exactly 20 hours. The safety pilot cannot legally log run-ups, take-offs, and landings. So maybe you each end up with about 18-19 hours. Now would the FAA or anyone else find out if you each logged the full 20 hours? Probably not unless something happened to you down the road and they went scouring your logbook to verify times, but if that were to happen I'm sure you'd end up pretty screwed. Probably not worth it for the extra hour or two. Try to make it as 'quality' time as possible. Fly practice approaches and make the best out of the time under the hood.

As for the splitting of the costs, if you were a private pilot taking a friend up for a ride you could charge them their pro rata share of rental/fuel expenses. I don't see why it would be different for a 'friend' you are taking up as a safety pilot, especially if you are switching back and forth between PIC at the controls and safety pilot roles. I wouldn't think two people going flying together and spitting the costs evenly would be considered running a commercial operation that requires a commercial operating certificate since private pilots are allowed to do it. According to that reg, you could technically take a couple buddies in the back seat and all go down to Florida on spring break, and have them help pay up to a quarter of the rental expenses.

There is always the issue of whether a potential employer will except safety pilot time, but that isn't really relevant here. In the event of an accident, you could also run into some insurance problems if the person doing the flying isn't checked out in the aircraft, doesn't meet the insurance requirements, or doesn't have required renter's insurance.

I've had bad luck with getting picked for ramp checks, but have never had them look at my log books. It has happened to me 3 times in my 278 hours of flying. But they have picked on me for the pettiest of things.

Don't automatically assume that just because you hit the mins that airlines will be knocking at your door. Chances are they won't. Minimums are just that, minimums.

Don't carry your logbook. Problem solved.

IIRC, CFII can technically instruct (instrument only) in category, as long as s/he has a commercial multi. Legal is one thing, though, and qualified is another.

I'm personally not a fan of these safety pilot / PIC "schemes", and I expect a lot of interviewers aren't either. You have to do what you have to do, but there are always consequences - especially for short cuts. Y'all be careful out there ... :eek:

That used to be the case based on the wording of the regulations, but that has been changed by a recent FAA Legal Opinion. You need an MEI to teach anything in a twin.

Some employers (or some interviewers) might look down on it or possibly even exclude it, but plenty of folks have gotten hired with SP time. You're better off with a 135 or MEI twin time, but SP time is better than 2800 TT and 28 ME :eek:

Do you know when that changed? I have some documentation that says if you have an Instrument on your CFI, you can teach in twins (instrument only stuff) since your insturment rating is not class specific (Instrument AIRPLANE). I was also under that impression that you can teach instruments in a twin, just not twin stuff (IE Vmc rolls, drag demos, engine failures, or sign off an applicant for a ME add on).

Did the regulation change backwards? For instance, lets say you get your MEI as initial then you get your II. Can you teach instruments to a private pilot in a 172?

I haven't seen that ruling, obviously. I do know a fellow who got his CFII (helicopter) added to his CFI certificate - before he got the CFI helicopter. He could - technically - give instrument instruction in helicopters. This was ten or twelve years ago, though. Lately the chief counsel has been all over the map, with overly restrictive rulings in some cases, and very loose ones (like safety pilot PIC) in others.

I'm sure there have been people hired, but I doubt safety pilot time was a big factor. 2800tt, 200me, with 172 hours of it as SP probably doesn't do much. If it gets you over the hump for a rating - or in the front door - then more power to you.

Here's 61.195 b and c ...


Some of this verbiage was added three or so years ago, IIRC. It's still clear as mud (there is no "class" instrument rating - for airplanes anyway), but there's less wiggle room for "same category". B prohibits any flight training "off class", but then C mentions instrument training - which might be differentiated from flight training. I'll bet the FAA's ruling made B limiting, but like I said I haven't seen it. Got a link, anyone?

You do not need and MEI to instruct in a twin ..... If you are a CFII you can tech Instruments and Instruments ONLY in a twin . I just did my MEI and that question came up in the oral .

Old tribal knowledge, it was changed last year and apparently not everyone got the memo. Actually I think the FAR was changed several years ago but the FAA had to issue a legal opinion to clarify what 61.195 now says.

Here's the memo...

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/.../Grayson-2.pdf

In fact the letter is stamped 4 January 2010 - and they'd apparently not caught up with the new interpretation, paperwork wise. It had been over two years. It seems that many of these rulings catch the rest of the agency by surprise. "Oh, oh yeah, this is what we mean". :rolleyes:

Good link. Thank you.

Oh man thanks for that im going to share this information

Huh? Things that are against the regs that you think are petty? If it is in the regs, it doesn't matter how stupid you think the rules are, they are still against the regs.

And I thought a look at your logbook was a given....

Edit: What on earth have you been doing that you've been ramp checked three times?? I can't say I personally know anyone who has been ramp checked, especially with your time.