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This is a discussion that has focused on a "witch hunt" by the FAA, aimed squarely at the military. This has been shown to be a lie, but one which has been repeatedly perpetuated.
I have repeatedly stated that the veterans administration opened the investigation into military personnel, investigating fraud, and further that the FAA declined to participate until the VA took legal action against the FAA. Subsequently, when the FAA did respond, and did find evidence that numerous medical applications failed to report disabilities, the FAA opened its own investigation into a regulatory violation. The truth is quite different than the "witch hunt" argued my numerous posters claiming persecution of the military. The truth is that this investigation involves military personnel who did not tell the truth, and any subsequent enforcement action against them is the fault of the individual who failed to report. Do not blame the FAA. It's a bit like committing a robbery and them blaming the police for getting caught. Grow up, take responsibility and own up to the failure to report. It's very simple. The enforcement has nothing to do with being military. It has everything to do with concealing what should have been owned up to, on the FAA airman medical application. This particular line of investigation was not opened by the FAA, but by the VA, which looked for fraud within the ranks of present and former members of the military, contracted to and employed by the Department of Defense. Call it what you will, but don't call it a witch hunt by the FAA, and attempt to shift the blame from where it belongs; on the heads of each who concealed their disability benefits on their airman medical application. |
This is a discussion that has focused on a "witch hunt" by the FAA, aimed squarely at the military. This has been shown to be a lie, but one which has been repeatedly perpetuated.
I have repeatedly stated that the veterans administration opened the investigation into military personnel, investigating fraud, and further that the FAA declined to participate until the VA took legal action against the FAA. Subsequently, when the FAA did respond, and did find evidence that numerous medical applications failed to report disabilities, the FAA opened its own investigation into a regulatory violation. The truth is quite different than the "witch hunt" argued my numerous posters claiming persecution of the military. The truth is that this investigation involves military personnel who did not tell the truth, and any subsequent enforcement action against them is the fault of the individual who failed to report. Do not blame the FAA. It's a bit like committing a robbery and them blaming the police for getting caught. Grow up, take responsibility and own up to the failure to report. It's very simple. The enforcement has nothing to do with being military. It has everything to do with concealing what should have been owned up to, on the FAA airman medical application. This particular line of investigation was not opened by the FAA, but by the VA, which looked for fraud within the ranks of present and former members of the military, contracted to and employed by the Department of Defense. Call it what you will, but don't call it a witch hunt by the FAA, and attempt to shift the blame from where it belongs; on the heads of each who concealed their disability benefits on their airman medical application. |
Originally Posted by Tim Taylor
(Post 3800750)
None of your experience has any bearing on letters of investigation for veterans recieving benefits, which is what this thread is about.
I had my medical reinstated only after getting a Congresswoman , AMAS and lawyers involved. Cost me over $19k not counting missed work when green slips were raining. I never lied/hid/nothing. I got nothing resembling due process. |
As a data point, I have minor VA issues, all reported and box checked since day one. Haven't heard a thing (knock wood).
They probably took one look at the thickness of CX500T's file and said "he's gotta be guilty of something..." |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 3801086)
As a data point, I have minor VA issues, all reported and box checked since day one. Haven't heard a thing (knock wood).
They probably took one look at the thickness of CX500T's file and said "he's gotta be guilty of something..." Plus the standalone oncology and cardio ones. But those wouldn't even make 1/4 of a volume if they added them. But them just straight up trying to find something, anything when all I had that would be disqualifying was reported and appropriately submitted and granted a SI 1st class with no restrictions other than cartying a spare partial foot prosthetic after a couple SODAs. (It's basically an orthotic on steroids but VA and FAA deem it to be a prosthetic) I do deem that to be a witch hunt. Cost me $19k out of pocket in lawyers, 9k in unnecessary testing not covered by insurance, and probably that much again in lost wages. But a couple posters say it "didn't count" because my experience is counter to their narrative of cheating veterans. |
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
(Post 3801013)
The enforcement has nothing to do with being military. It has everything to do with concealing what should have been owned up to, on the FAA airman medical application. This particular line of investigation was not opened by the FAA, but by the VA, which looked for fraud within the ranks of present and former members of the military, contracted to and employed by the Department of Defense. Call it what you will, but don't call it a witch hunt by the FAA, and attempt to shift the blame from where it belongs; on the heads of each who concealed their disability benefits on their airman medical application. Thousands of veterans who disclosed EVERYTHING to the FAA received letters anyway. No concealment, no fraud, no BS, just served their country and got wounded or injured. But here you are defaming all of them. [MOD EDIT] . |
Originally Posted by Profane Kahuna
(Post 3801150)
Nope, your hatred of the military is showing again.
Thousands of veterans who disclosed EVERYTHING to the FAA received letters anyway. No concealment, no fraud, no BS, just served their country and got wounded or injured. But here you are defaming all of them. [MOD EDIT] . People have legit injuries, service-related stuff, I don't think anyone is denying that. But some have also chosen to play both sides of the fence - claim and not report. Albeit a very small minority, someone $hits the bed and we all wear diapers. I'd never expect that from our bureaucracy. Save that anger for your brothers and sisters who never left the finance office in KU, or a staff job for 25 years and are broken down from their "service". |
In my observation...
JB has tempered his attitude towards military aviators over the years here. If he was posting aggregious stuff, it wouldn't fly with me. The VA/FAA dragnet has caught some gross offenders. People who should have known better and I've been saying for years this was probably coming eventually. It takes pretty willfull ignorance for an officer with 10+ years AD to kid themselves that it's OK to claim VA $$$ and not check that box on the 8500, or report major disability rating items. Yes the system will 100% lead you down that rosy path but at our level you need to know when to set the brake and do the right thing. These aren't 22 year-old E-4's. Apparently the FAA has also sent threating letters to a lot of vets who have probably done nothing wrong, other than having a lot going on medically. This appears to have an aspect of "witchhunt", the FAA should have put in the effort and done their bureaucratic homework before going off half-cocked. Worst case, politely asked for detailed clarification on anything that somewhow wasn't clear to them in their own records. .Gov idiots. |
Knock it off gents.
Some vets blatantly falsified their 8500's and are reaping the consequences, rightfully so. Then FAA went off half-cocked and sent nasty letters to *some* vets who did everything right. That's not "nothing to worry about" when you're the one who has to lose sleep, pay a lawyer, and possibly repeat previously settled medical tests and adjudication. End of story. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 3801086)
As a data point, I have minor VA issues, all reported and box checked since day one. Haven't heard a thing (knock wood).
They probably took one look at the thickness of CX500T's file and said "he's gotta be guilty of something..." |
Why is the question even on the application? Strike it. Drop the whole thing.
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Originally Posted by KevinGrey400
(Post 3801764)
My medical record from the DoD is 1232 hard earned pages. You shouldnt be flippant.
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Originally Posted by METO Guido
(Post 3801766)
Why is the question even on the application? Strike it. Drop the whole thing.
And it gives them legal probable cause to subpoena records when they find somebody who's getting $ from another gov agency but didn't check the box. |
Originally Posted by KevinGrey400
(Post 3801764)
My medical record from the DoD is 1232 hard earned pages. You shouldnt be flippant.
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Originally Posted by KevinGrey400
(Post 3801764)
My medical record from the DoD is 1232 hard earned pages. You shouldnt be flippant.
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 3801771)
Because if people are collecting disability payments, it's most likely for something which should be reported to the FAA.
And it gives them legal probable cause to subpoena records when they find somebody who's getting $ from another gov agency but didn't check the box. |
Originally Posted by 60av8tor
(Post 3801774)
May be a shocker to you, but the size of your med jacket has no bearing on anything. A large file could be taken many ways. May not be the flex you're intending to everyone here.
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To pick up where last left off, and in particular to those who think the FAA world revolves around persecuting former military (veterans), a reminder that enforcement for failure to report benefits covers far more than just VA benefits. AOPA reports on the case of a seventy-one year old retired USAF colonel who pled guilty to fraudulent claim of social security benefits, and was also conficted of three counts of making falsle statements to the FAA; the conviction was in federal court, by jury, not merely an FAA administrative action. The subject defrauded both the VA and the Social Security Administration, though most charges were dropped by plea, with one guilty plea for the social security, and restitution of some one hundred forty thousand and change. The jury conviction wasn't for the theft from the government, but for lying to the FAA, specificly failure to report disability benefits. The seventy-one year old was one of those discovered by the VA investigation that was pressed into the FAA's hands. It moved beyond an administrative action, to criminal charges. The retired colonel was found to have not lied to the FAA by error, but by intent, hence, the conviction.
The subject was facing up to five years in prison per charge, and a quarter of a million dollar fine per charge, which led him to plead down to the single charge of social securities fraud. He did wind up with a three year sentence (supervised release), and eight hundrd fifty thousand in fines. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2024/june/13/pilot-sentenced-for-lying-on-faa-medical-applications?utm_source=epilot&utm_medium=email It's worth mentioning because discovery of failure to disclose goes far beyond a slap on the wrist or even a certificate suspension. It can get a lot worse, to include criminal federal charges, jail time, and big fines, and it can extend beyond your flying career years. Nothing with which to toy around. From AMAS (Aviation Medicine Advisory Service) today, in their email news blast (no link because email): The February FAA Safety Briefing contained an aeromedical advisory update from the FAA Federal Air Surgeon, Dr. Susan Northrup, regarding airmen reporting obligations for receiving medical disability benefits which can be found here. Dr. Northrup notes that in addition to VA disability, airmen need to report “any form of disability benefit, including from a private insurer, workers’ compensation, or Social Security disability”. Furthermore, when dealing with service-connected VA ratings, “even a 0% disability rating should be reported” on the FAA’s MedXpress application (FAA Form 8500-8). Remember that the FAA is concerned with the condition and treatment rather than the amount of compensation. There are many airmen with 100% VA disability ratings who have been cleared by the FAA. AOPA recently reported sentencing of a retired USAF Colonel who was given 6 months of home confinement, 3 years probation, and $850,000 in fines, for fraudulent medical applications. Reporting Disability Compensation By Dr. Susan Northrop, FAA Flight Surgeon Recently, there has been a lot of discussion in many different forums regarding the FAA and pilots who receive disability compensation, especially from the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA). Some pilots are concerned that a high disability rating can jeopardize medical certification. This is not true. Our determination is based on the condition and treatment, not the amount of compensation. While the likelihood of a significant medical issue does increase with a higher rating, the correlation is not as strong as you might think. In fact, we have pilots who have a 100% disability rating from the VA, yet qualify for a Class I or II medical. On the other hand, some conditions, such as a seizure disorder, can have a rating from the VA, as low as 10%, yet not be safe for flight. For this reason, even a 0% disability rating should be reported. I want to emphasize though that we consider each pilot individually with the goal of issuing a medical when it is safe to do so. I would like to address the responsibility that we pilots have for reporting disability compensation on the FAA medical application (FAA Form 8500–8). I would also like to remind you that you need to report any form of disability benefit, including from a private insurer, workers’ compensation, or Social Security disability. Question 18y, Medical Disability Benefits, is answered incorrectly by many pilots. The purpose of providing medical history on the 8500–8 form through MedXPress is to identify areas of potential aeromedical concern and to ensure adequate and aeromedically acceptable mitigation. Sometimes these concerns can be addressed by the aviation medical examiner (AME) while you are in the office, and you leave with your medical in hand; other times additional information and testing might be necessary to ensure aviation safety. This is just as true for a history of medical disability benefits as any medical condition. Why are we concerned about pilots receiving medical disability? The short answer is that even though pilots should annotate their medical conditions in other parts of question 18, they may not believe that an underlying medical condition or treatment falls within another question on FAA form 8500–8. Additionally, question 18y can serve as a helpful reminder of medical conditions that the applicant did not think about when answering other parts of question 18. Remember that our goal is to ensure the safety of the national airspace system. This question helps us ensure that all underlying medical conditions are disclosed, adequately controlled (or resolved), and that the treatment is aeromedically acceptable. For those of you who have been granted disability compensation since your last medical application, I recommend that you gather the paperwork you have for that disability compensation and bring it with you to show your AME at your next FAA medical examination. If it’s a VA disability, bring the VA decision letter(s). Consider making an appointment with your AME prior to the examination to review the information for completeness. For those of you who have been granted disability compensation prior to your last FAA medical but did not report it, I recommend that you provide this to the FAA now even if you are not due for an examination. Your AME can help with this. Make sure that you bring copies of all the disability evaluations, not just the most recent ones. This will expedite your review. Should your disability compensation change, you will also need to report this. Generally, you will do so at the time of your next medical application. Second, independent of any reporting requirements, remember your obligations under 14 CFR section 61.53. The bottom line is that question 18y is like any other question about medical history. We simply want to ensure that the underlying condition is well-controlled and that the treatment is aeromedically acceptable. Dr. Susan Northrup received a bachelor’s degree in chemistry, a medical degree from The Ohio State University, and a master’s degree in public health from the University of Texas. She is double board-certified by the American Board of Preventive Medicine in Aerospace Medicine and Occupational Medicine. She is a retired U.S. Air Force colonel and a former regional medical director for Delta Air Lines. She is also an active private pilot. |
Originally Posted by CX500T
(Post 3801053)
I got a letter of investigation. I had my medical revoked.
I had my medical reinstated only after getting a Congresswoman , AMAS and lawyers involved. Cost me over $19k not counting missed work when green slips were raining. I never lied/hid/nothing. I got nothing resembling due process. The combo of those 3 would make that very attractive to many attorneys. Sure as hell hope you got on that if you havent already. If the UAL pilot got a $300K settlement from the city of Denver in 2019 after being falsely arrested for indecency at the airport hotel, then theres no question that this is equally unjust and deserves the same or greater legal remedy. |
Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
(Post 3817311)
Dude you need to lawyer up and sue the pants off the FAA---and for like 10X more than what it actually cost. It would be very easy to find a line-up of attorneys ready to take that on esp since 1) Your damages are quantative 2) the FAA has deep pockets. 3) They found you didnt violate any regs (of course).
The combo of those 3 would make that very attractive to many attorneys. Sure as hell hope you got on that if you havent already. If the UAL pilot got a $300K settlement from the city of Denver in 2019 after being falsely arrested for indecency at the airport hotel, then theres no question that this is equally unjust and deserves the same or greater legal remedy. One's first opportunity to take legal action to defend one's self is at the appeal process. First comes the conviction, then the accused may seek to prove himself or herself not liable. The FAA doesn't have deep pockets. Under civil law, just about anyone can sue just about anyone; there are limits on the ability to sue the government, however; especially when the government has acted within the scope of it's duty. Whether it acted properly or not, it still may be a tough row to hoe. One can try, but one also faces considerable cost in making the effort. A UAL pilot suing a city is not the same thing as suing the FAA for an administrative enforcement action. Further, the FAA does not owe any pilot a medical certificate. If the FAA states that medical privileges are suspended pending additional documentation, a pilot does not have a right to that certificate, and is obligated to meet what burden the FAA requires, to show compliance. The FAA is not obligated to issue pilot or medical certification. It's a privilege, not a right. I recently burned up all my sick time, and vacation time, until I met the burden required by the FAA with regard to documentation, plus the time required to go through the process until approval, and am now on a special issuance. Ironically, all my medical testing presently shows me outside the boundaries to define that medical issue. In other words, my medical documentation shows that the reason for which I have a special issuance does not exist for me. Never the less, I have a recurring duty now to get all the testing and certification, in order to get my medical, going forward. I'm now required to demonstrate not that I'm okay to fly with that condition, but that I don't have it. Go figure. It costs. It takes time. It requires a roundup of tests and appointments and various physicians. I have no more vacation or sick time to fall back on, and burned up savings. Never the less, I do not have a case to make against the FAA. The FAA determined that additional testing and documentation was required, determined that a special issuance was in order, and thus it went. I can't turn around and sue on the basis that it cost me time or money; the FAA does not owe me a medical, nor do I have a right to the certificate. I am required to meet whatever documentation, testing and medical evidence is required, to satisfy the FAA, and that's what's been done. Shortly, with another medical coming up, that's what's going to be done again. My expense, not the FAA's. That's reality. If you're familiar with the Bob Hoover story, you'll have an idea of the expenses that can attend a fight to restore privileges, when the FAA takes aim. Even such a high profile event with some of the most high-profile attorneys in the business backing the fight, it was uphill and an extremely expensive multi-million dollar path for one of the best known most widely respected, and beloved pilots on the planet and all he did was the airshow routine he was approved to fly. That event can be torn up and down in discussion and has been, many times over, but when it comes to the FAA seeking additional data for the medical, or doing an emergency revocation, or anything in beetween, it's not simply a matter of the FAA having deep pockets, and coulda, woulda, shoulda have sued. |
JB pretty much hit everything I was gonna say and more.
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Yes hard to sue the government in general, and it typically only pans out when they are in aggregious violation of law or common sense.
FAA aeromedical taking their slow bureaucratic time to address a certification issue is well within the scope of their authority, I think you'd have to show malicious intent to have any shot at a liability claim, ie somebody didn't like you personally and deliberately stalled the process. I've also never heard of the FAA, or any government agency, being held liable for lost wages due to slow processes. I'm sure the precedent is already set against that, otherwise people would do it all the time (or the FAA would process cases quickly to avoid it). |
You guys are all missing the point.....
He ALREADY was cleared by the FAA to fly. There was no change in his medical condition, nor any adverse info they recieved that wasnt already previously reported. It was because of the FAA's own incompetence that he mistakenly had his medical temporarily revoked. Do you guys seriously not see that?? And you guys are implying that there shouldn't be any legal accountability for such gross incompetence. Hell ****ing yea he should lawyer up and fight like hell to hold the FAA accountable in this situation. There's always the chance one might not prevail but damn right one should at least go down fighting like hell, rather than do absolutely nothing in terms of redress. And John Burke, like usual, is incorrect (shocking isnt it--he is unquestionably the most hated poster on here by far). One is still owed due process for something that is a privlidge and not a right. Granted, the burden of proof is much more lax than in a criminal matter, but its still there. |
Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
(Post 3818349)
You guys are all missing the point.....
He ALREADY was cleared by the FAA to fly. There was no change in his medical condition, nor any adverse info they recieved that wasnt already previously reported. It was because of the FAA's own incompetence that he mistakenly had his medical temporarily revoked. Do you guys seriously not see that?? And you guys are implying that there shouldn't be any legal accountability for such gross incompetence. Hell ****ing yea he should lawyer up and fight like hell to hold the FAA accountable in this situation. There's always the chance one might not prevail but damn right one should at least go down fighting like hell, rather than do absolutely nothing in terms of redress. And John Burke, like usual, is incorrect (shocking isnt it--he is unquestionably the most hated poster on here by far). One is still owed due process for something that is a privlidge and not a right. Granted, the burden of proof is much more lax than in a criminal matter, but its still there. The FAA can issue, revoke, and deny certificates almost at will. You have the right to an appeal. And that’s about it. |
Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
(Post 3818349)
You guys are all missing the point.....
Some of us have. Some of us are. Some of us get the point very, very well.
Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
(Post 3818349)
He ALREADY was cleared by the FAA to fly. There was no change in his medical condition, nor any adverse info they recieved that wasnt already previously reported. It was because of the FAA's own incompetence that he mistakenly had his medical temporarily revoked. Do you guys seriously not see that?? You are not aware that a medical certificate in hand comes with a conditional period following issuance, during which it can be taken back, revoked, cancelled, or suspended pending further review? You are not aware that the FAA, that issues the medical certificate, can request additional documentation at any time, based on existing information, or lack thereof? Do you not know that after you receive your medical certificate from an AME, you can be contacted by phone, or by mail after that time, to be notified that the certificate will be held invalid, pending additional testing, documentation, or examination? Examples are legion, but it may be anything from further review of your EKG, to detection of trace sugar in your urine; perhaps the AME thinks it's fine or doesn't flag it, but It does come up, and shortly there after you're sent for an A1C and you're on the hook for a special issuance, exams for diabetic retinopathy, yada, yada. It may be discovery of disability benefits undeclared or misdeclared, which might be VA, Social Security, Insurance, or other. It could be a lot of things, but simply becuase you walked out of a fifteen-minute exam witith your AME, with your paper certificate in hand, you have NO guarantee. None. Your ignorance of this fact changes nothing, and grants you no rights. Certainly you have the individual right to "fight it" with an attorney. You also have the privilege to pay for that fight. Have you ever had to do that? No?
Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
(Post 3818349)
And you guys are implying that there shouldn't be any legal accountability for such gross incompetence.
None? Oh.
Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
(Post 3818349)
Hell ****ing yea he should lawyer up and fight like hell to hold the FAA accountable in this situation. There's always the chance one might not prevail but damn right one should at least go down fighting like hell, rather than do absolutely nothing in terms of redress.
How much of our medical bills will you be covering? None? That's odd. You seem so gung-ho. Perhaps we should do it anyway, for you. You know, so you'll feel better, in your righeous (but ignorant, and wrong) indignation. How much are you willing to spend to get educated? How much have you spent? Some of us have already spent. You? Come one, mate. Join the club. The water's warm. Come on in! "Go down fighting," to make a point? Spend six million just because? Perhaps to satisfy you? Since you're the one bankrolling us in this tilt at a windmill, perhaps we should humor you?
Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
(Post 3818349)
And John Burke, like usual, is incorrect (shocking isnt it--he is unquestionably the most hated poster on here by far).
The most hated poster here? Also interesting. You've made that point, so it's yours to defend, of course (though you can't, and certainly won't). How will you do that? The world does not revolve around "likes," whether you have garnered that impression from social media, or not. Grow up.
Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
(Post 3818349)
One is still owed due process for something that is a privlidge and not a right. Granted, the burden of proof is much more lax than in a criminal matter, but its still there.
You do understand that the FAA does not owe you a medical certificate, don't you? There is a legal appeal process. It has efficacy and a path once one has met the burden required to get the medical certificate. If the FAA requires additional documentation, you'd be a god damn idiot to file a law suit as your first course of action. What you would do, and what any competent professional would advise you to do, is supply the documentation, and keep supplying it until resolution is obtained. if you eventually get your medical certificate, you could sue civilly and argue that your personal health costs you too much, and argue that the government's deep pockets should pay for your personal medical condition or health. You could do that. Let us know how it turns out. On the other hand, if you are denied medical certification, you could enter the legal process to "fight like hell," and you could bankroll it, though you'd be a god damn idiot to do that instead of working through an organization that does it for a living, and taking their counsel. See how far that gets you, and when you've supplied every test result, every exam result, all of your medical history, and you still can't hold a medical, arguing that you should be able to hold a medical will net you precisely bupkiss. A judge can't order the FAA to issue a medical certificate. Now, if the FAA has made a clearly obvious, non-medical decision about your medical certification (say, decided you're medically unairworthy based on yoru mental state, because you wore a green shirt with yellow dots, instead of a yellow shirt with greendots on a Wednesday), you may have a shot. But, it's gonna cost you. Good luck. We're all counting on you. Well, not really, because whatever you do, and whatever you spend, and whatever head-banging you continue to do, won't change the speed of the rotation of the earth one iota, nor alter our day, nor cause anyone here any heartache. Then again, your hate doesn't really do that either. Sorry you're ineffective. Good luck, anyway. |
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
(Post 3818393)
Ever been in that situation? No?
Some of us have. Some of us are. Some of us get the point very, very well. You are not aware that a medical certificate in hand is not a guarantee? You are not aware that a medical certificate in hand comes with a conditional period following issuance, during which it can be taken back, revoked, cancelled, or suspended pending further review? You are not aware that the FAA, that issues the medical certificate, can request additional documentation at any time, based on existing information, or lack thereof? Do you not know that after you receive your medical certificate from an AME, you can be contacted by phone, or by mail after that time, to be notified that the certificate will be held invalid, pending additional testing, documentation, or examination? Examples are legion, but it may be anything from further review of your EKG, to detection of trace sugar in your urine; perhaps the AME thinks it's fine or doesn't flag it, but It does come up, and shortly there after you're sent for an A1C and you're on the hook for a special issuance, exams for diabetic retinopathy, yada, yada. It may be discovery of disability benefits undeclared or misdeclared, which might be VA, Social Security, Insurance, or other. It could be a lot of things, but simply becuase you walked out of a fifteen-minute exam witith your AME, with your paper certificate in hand, you have NO guarantee. None. Your ignorance of this fact changes nothing, and grants you no rights. Certainly you have the individual right to "fight it" with an attorney. You also have the privilege to pay for that fight. Have you ever had to do that? No? No one here has made any such implication (except you, of course, when you wrote it). First, it's not "gross incompetence." Like it, hate it, but it's within the scope of the duty and responsibility and the office of the FAA Flight Surgeon. Secondly, it's not a matter of shoulda, woulda, or coulda. Just a matter of what is. You want someone here to go sue the FAA, and apparently have your knickers in a twist about it. Bankroll it. Pay for it. See what it costs, and see what the results are, and then see what damage you've done to the airman making the application. Are you willing to put your money where your keyboard is, and is anyone in that situaiton wiling to stick their neck out for your righteous (but very ignorant) indignation? How much of your own money are you willing to put up for that "fight?" None? Oh. It cost Bob Hoover a big over six million dollars. How much of our legal bills will you be bankrolling? How much of our medical bills will you be covering? None? That's odd. You seem so gung-ho. Perhaps we should do it anyway, for you. You know, so you'll feel better, in your righeous (but ignorant, and wrong) indignation. How much are you willing to spend to get educated? How much have you spent? Some of us have already spent. You? Come one, mate. Join the club. The water's warm. Come on in! "Go down fighting," to make a point? Spend six million just because? Perhaps to satisfy you? Since you're the one bankrolling us in this tilt at a windmill, perhaps we should humor you? Now, that is interesting, isn't it? My posts are laced with citations, quotes, and links, and I prove my point, and no, I'm not wrong. I wouldn't have posted if I was wrong, nor taken the time to do the research or show the work, but you're always welcome to do the same and prove otherwise. You can do that, can't you? The most hated poster here? Also interesting. You've made that point, so it's yours to defend, of course (though you can't, and certainly won't). How will you do that? The world does not revolve around "likes," whether you have garnered that impression from social media, or not. Grow up. What is "due process" when it comes to obtaining a medical certificate? You do understand that the FAA does not owe you a medical certificate, don't you? There is a legal appeal process. It has efficacy and a path once one has met the burden required to get the medical certificate. If the FAA requires additional documentation, you'd be a god damn idiot to file a law suit as your first course of action. What you would do, and what any competent professional would advise you to do, is supply the documentation, and keep supplying it until resolution is obtained. if you eventually get your medical certificate, you could sue civilly and argue that your personal health costs you too much, and argue that the government's deep pockets should pay for your personal medical condition or health. You could do that. Let us know how it turns out. On the other hand, if you are denied medical certification, you could enter the legal process to "fight like hell," and you could bankroll it, though you'd be a god damn idiot to do that instead of working through an organization that does it for a living, and taking their counsel. See how far that gets you, and when you've supplied every test result, every exam result, all of your medical history, and you still can't hold a medical, arguing that you should be able to hold a medical will net you precisely bupkiss. A judge can't order the FAA to issue a medical certificate. Now, if the FAA has made a clearly obvious, non-medical decision about your medical certification (say, decided you're medically unairworthy based on yoru mental state, because you wore a green shirt with yellow dots, instead of a yellow shirt with greendots on a Wednesday), you may have a shot. But, it's gonna cost you. Good luck. We're all counting on you. Well, not really, because whatever you do, and whatever you spend, and whatever head-banging you continue to do, won't change the speed of the rotation of the earth one iota, nor alter our day, nor cause anyone here any heartache. Then again, your hate doesn't really do that either. Sorry you're ineffective. Good luck, anyway. |
RIP Senator Imhofe.
Thank-you for the Pilot's Bill of Rights |
Originally Posted by PineappleXpres
(Post 3818421)
What loss of license insurance do you carry? That seems like the only weapon. Preparedness from this dilemma that can find any of us at anytime.
My first round of being grounded came with kidney stones (and several surgeries, stent, etc), described here before. That event was several months without pay while I waited on a medical resolution. That time frame can be a year or more for some, depending on the backlog and what's wrong, as well as the difficulty in resolving (for those who don't use a service like AMAS, it can be an extended daisy-chain of the Administrator requiring additional documentation, which is time-consuming). That boils down to self-help, either via carried insurance(s), or savings, or other means (working, if able). It doesn't need to be an "old-person" malady to dig into the coffers; getting t-boned in an intersection counts, too. The California ethos of suing the pants off anything that breathes, for the crime of breathing, does not always carry the day. |
Originally Posted by PineappleXpres
(Post 3818421)
Love the rant. Who do you work for again? What loss of license insurance do you carry? That seems like the only weapon. Preparedness from this dilemma that can find any of us at anytime.
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Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
(Post 3818541)
With all of JB's embelished and far fetched stories (like the one about the FSDO inspector in church--does anyone REALLY believe him on that one?) he'll never divulge that.
You won't be paying for those law suits, then? You'e never been in that position before either. Have you? You needn't apologize for your lack of experience, but you really need to go get some. Perhaps then the world wouldn't seem to amazing to you. Check back when you've been around the block, the first time. |
"Oh, it's just Avbug being Avbug, he's been doing it for years"
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Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
(Post 3818547)
You havent cited ONE source for any of your claims.
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/3691448-post34.html https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/3782095-post70.html https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/3816198-post138.html The six-million dollar number, incidentally, was one that was very well known at the time Hoover was pursuing his medical. I recall it well, and it was a frequent topic of discussion in the cockpit, class, FBO's with students, you name it. https://www.aviationpros.com/tools-e...ights-not-over What followed became a three-year struggle for Hoover. It developed into an immense industry-wide protest of a scope that had never been seen before… or since. After millions of dollars, tremendous personal embarrassment, and no small amount of legal maneuvering, the FAA relented and restored Bob’s privileges—to the delight of flyers everywhere. You're a little late to the party, and yet, wrong once again. |
Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
(Post 3818547)
You havent cited ONE source for any of your claims. Yet Ive already cited two. Are you really that dense??
You claim Hoover had more than $6M in legal bills, yet you didnt even cite that?? I seriously doubt it it was even 10% of that, since even homicide legal expenses from a reputable private firm run from about $80K-125K. https://www.quora.com/If-a-lawyer-ta...ill-he-require Please cite the $6M figure for Hoover. Your ego is on Everest but you IQ is on the bottom of the Mariana Trench. Can't even imagine how much your wife and kids disrespect you. |
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
(Post 3816198)
To pick up where last left off, and in particular to those who think the FAA world revolves around persecuting former military (veterans), a reminder that enforcement for failure to report benefits covers far more than just VA benefits. AOPA reports on the case of a seventy-one year old retired USAF colonel who pled guilty to fraudulent claim of social security benefits, and was also conficted of three counts of making falsle statements to the FAA; the conviction was in federal court, by jury, not merely an FAA administrative action. The subject defrauded both the VA and the Social Security Administration, though most charges were dropped by plea, with one guilty plea for the social security, and restitution of some one hundred forty thousand and change. The jury conviction wasn't for the theft from the government, but for lying to the FAA, specificly failure to report disability benefits. The seventy-one year old was one of those discovered by the VA investigation that was pressed into the FAA's hands. It moved beyond an administrative action, to criminal charges. The retired colonel was found to have not lied to the FAA by error, but by intent, hence, the conviction.
The subject was facing up to five years in prison per charge, and a quarter of a million dollar fine per charge, which led him to plead down to the single charge of social securities fraud. He did wind up with a three year sentence (supervised release), and eight hundrd fifty thousand in fines. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2024/june/13/pilot-sentenced-for-lying-on-faa-medical-applications?utm_source=epilot&utm_medium=email It's worth mentioning because discovery of failure to disclose goes far beyond a slap on the wrist or even a certificate suspension. It can get a lot worse, to include criminal federal charges, jail time, and big fines, and it can extend beyond your flying career years. Nothing with which to toy around. From AMAS (Aviation Medicine Advisory Service) today, in their email news blast (no link because email): The linked article above by. Susan Northrup (https://medium.com/faa/reporting-disability-compensation-6b432fd3b8ce) is worth reviewing: man you really hate the military, it's one of your favorite rants. One scammer out of millions who served honorably and here comes an essay from JB. . |
Nothing whatsoever to do with the military.
Someone REALLY missed the point. Not in the least surprising. |
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
(Post 3819643)
Nothing whatsoever to do with the military.
Someone REALLY missed the point. Not in the least surprising. You claim "nothing whatsoever to do with the military" yet your post mentions the military 5 times. We all know you hate the military, continued denials and postings just prove the point. . |
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
(Post 3819643)
Nothing whatsoever to do with the military.
Someone REALLY missed the point. Not in the least surprising. |
Irrelevant.
Many seem to miss the point. This isn't about the military. It's about FAA medical certificates, and required reporting. It's also about the penalties for failure to abide the regulation. Don't fail to report, then blame the FAA. |
So, let’s take a wag. Who staffs the faa? Mostly ret. Mil plussing up govt pension terms, that’s who. Who’s collecting disability & carrier premium contract compensation, ret. Mil of course.
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke
(Post 3821889)
This isn't about the military. It's like a baited hook, you can't resist it. It is the most constant thing on these forums, you have created a reputation as a military hater.
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
(Post 3821889)
Don't fail to report, then blame the FAA. It seems to be your nature to lecture others as inferiors. No one here is scamming the system and then whining about it. None of us are even defending the handful of scammers out of millions of veterans. Most of us vets would say lock them up, the difference is we don't go on and on and on about. . |
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