PSA or Republic (PHL Desired)
 

I keep hearing about junior manning and how the flow isn't worth much if you have a 4 yr degree and a good resume... Being a CFI working 6 to 7 days per week 14 plus hours a day (making **** poor money), I'm ready for a better QOL. What are your opinions on Republic vs PSA for a phl base? What about long term career outlook? Any insight would be much appreciated.. mid 30s with a mortgage if that changes anything strategy wise.. thanks in advance.

As of right now PHL is small and also fairly senior at PSA. That may not always be the case, but I’ve yet to hear of any plans for major growth there.


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I am not sure what PHL is like for Republic, but it’s a small base for us and senior at the Captain side. In regards to flow, a lot of folks who don’t have the flow will always try to say. However, I think of the flow as a insurance card/sure thing to AA in my back pocket while trying to get hired on off the street to the Majors. Think of it as playing house money.

How likely is it to get PHL out of training as a new hire?

At present very likely. PHL for PSA has its downsides but if you live close they’re all tolerable.

PHL just went to four new hires in the most recent bid.

Phl is really senior at PSA

Expect like 18 months on reserve at least with not the best reserve rules

PSA does ready reserve?

It’s not so much really senior as it is small. And 18 months sitting reserve FROM YOUR HOUSE is a different thing

Yes, psa has short call reserve lines (about 90% of reserves) sit hot at the airport from time to time, maybe 20% of days

Yes we do have hot reserve. But if you live in base, it’s no big deal.

Ohhhhhhh man do you ever! Not only do you get a type rating in the CL-65, but wait for it....... The lazy boy 8.0!! As you’ll be spending 8.0 hours a day sitting in your monkey suit doing nothing.....

Except if you’re a Captain. You’ll be flying a 4 day and 2 more days after that within 7 mins of butt in recliner with an extension to the max duty day on the last day, and you’ll ******* LIKE IT! Happens to me every time. The last time I was released early enough to catch a flight home the same day my wife actually cried.

Especially if you end up based in CLT or DCA. They just agreed to increase the amount of HRV crews to sit. Double the fun!

Terminal treasure hunts are fun when you have enough people to partake.

Piedmont for a PHL base.

I keep reading about terrible QOL and no solutions on the horizon for pdt... Is it true that not being on base is still better than being on base with PDT?

Yes. You could commute across the country to LAX for compass and have to get a hotel on both ends of your trip and have a better quality of life than living in base with Piedmont. Not exaggerating. Read their threads. Senior line holding pilots at piedmont are getting only 11 days off and only crediting 75 hours.

Yeah I don’t know anyone who is happy with their decision to be a piedmonster.

Lazy Boy? You must be one of those spoiled CLT reserves. The outstations are lucky to have furniture just barely superior to lawn chairs.

Their flow rate, as a percentage of the pilot group (which is what matters) has long been higher than PSA's, so there is that. If flow is the goal, Piedmont has been the better choice for several years.

Go to PSA.

Not lately. Piedmont’s flow is just under 10 years for new hires.

A Piedmont Line holder vs a PSA line holder even prior to the PSA pay raise had to work an extra 3 months worth of days per year to come close to match PSA credit.

Over a 10 year period waiting to flow, a Piedmont pilot will be at work an extra 900 days compared to a PSA pilot, for less credit.

How many is Piedmont flowing a month?
How many pilots are on Piedmont's seniority list?

PSA is flowing just ten a month.
PSA has 1,900 pilots on the seniority list.

Let's see the numbers over at Piedmont.

PDT flows six per month.

744 on the seniority list currently (fluxes between 740-760ish).

Thanks.

Piedmont is flowing a maximum 9.68% of the seniority list annually. PSA is flowing a maximum 6.32%. Piedmont is flowing at a 53% greater rate than PSA is.

Would you rather be in jail with an 8 year flow to American or in a staffed carribean villa with a 10 year flow.

There’s more to the choice than single point in time flow measurements

Obviously there are many factors to consider. That doesn't mean one shouldn't counter misinformation...intentional or not. If flow is the priority, PSA's is inferior to Piedmont for a new hire. That is simple math. Would you rather be on the bottom of a seniority list with 6% of those senior to you leaving via flow every year, or on the bottom of a seniority list with 50% more leaving via flow every year?

It's a data point to add to the decision process.

Also, at PSA rate he probably will never see even LCR in PHL in the first year and a half at least.

PHL won't grow at PSA and might even shrink....while probably will always be there for Piedmont.

Another point is that piedmont lines might be bad...but he will be stuck for a long time in reserve anyway, so no big changes here...moreover he will not be able to hold captain LCR or better in PHL for a long time

3.3% quicker theoretical flow isn’t enough to make Piedmont a better than PSA choice in any location where both have bases the way things currently are.

Even when Piedmont gets its pay raise, it will still be hampered by 16hr. 4 day Lines strung together for 75hr credit lines with 11 days off.

11 days off (mostly 2 days with an occasional 3 or 4 day stretch thrown in) for 10 years... the OP said they’re looking for QOL. Piedmont is the last airline to come to in Philly or CLT if quality of life is even remotely part of the consideration.

The difference isn’t 3.3%. It’s 53%.

Republic here if you're actually curious about what's going on here...PHL has been up and down over the last year. They suddenly had a few vacancies that let a bunch of junior FO's in, but I imagine that door has closed by now. Junior lineholder FO for June is 6/25/18 hire. However, PHL is small for us. Only 31 full lines. There's always movement, though...PHL on the CA side doesn't move at all, so FO's will end up taking upgrades in other bases. Junior upgrade is under 2 years now.

Truth somewhere in between. Outside attrition is what really drives time to flow

There is no “in between”. 9 is 50% greater than 6. Flow alone is roughly 53% higher at Piedmont. It’s fourth-grade math.

Regarding outside attrition, both carriers will likely experience roughly the same percentage of outside attrition, so that factor cancels out.

A ten year flow at PDT isn’t realistic, because it doesn’t account for outside attrition. Likewise, a 16-year flow at PSA isn’t realistic, for the same reason.

If half of PSA’s pilots leave outside the flow, that leaves 950/120 per year = 7.92 years for number 1,900 to flow.

If half of PDT’s pilots flow, that leaves 372/72 per year = 5.17 years for number 744 to flow.

That’s nearly three years’ difference. That’s what a 53% higher flow rate (considering pilot group size) does for PDT.

A new hire who chooses PDT over PSA, and who flows, is likely to spend nearly three more years at AA...three more years at $250k-$300k/year. This assumes no change in flow rates from present.

PDT’s flow is presently superior to PSA’s, and has been for a few years. Again, there are a lot of other factors to consider, but an extra $15k-$20k/year during one’s time at the regionals is nothing compared to an extra $250k/year at AA.

Piedmont has the lowest outside attrition of line pilots of the three WO. Also has the Lowest % of apps on file with AA outside the flow. There’s a lot of turnover on the bottom of the list as NHs leave during the 11 month training delays. Only about 45-55% of each class remains in property through their first year flying the line currently. After that, outside flow attrition drops to 1 or 2 (max) pilots leaving outside the flow per month.

The five year flow at Piedmont Does not exist for new hires.

Do not come to Piedmont for a Philly area base unless you can’t get hired on at the following airlines:

Frontier
PSA
Republic

Each of the above will give better pay, scheduling and QOL. A 10 year flow is not worth coming to Piedmont.

I see. So PDT is a horrible place to work, and no one should go there, but no one at PDT wants to leave for better opportunities. It’s crystal clear to me now.

Piedmont is like a jam in traffic. At the front of the line the end is in sight so even though it’s slow moving it’s not too bad. In the middle the line is long and barely moving but there aren’t many options to get out and go another way. Towards the back end folks see how long the line is and how it’s barely moving and take alternate route as soon as they can.

When the flow was introduced PDT had less than 400 pilots and was going to take 5 years for new hires. Every 50-60 people since then has added a year to the flow. For a time Piedmont was supposed to get 175s, then instead 100+ 140/5s, which would have supported growth of he pilot group to increase flow. Those things didn’t materialize and aircraft completed at 60 and management has announced they intend to keep the pilot group its current 740-760 range.

Yes the % of pilots flowed per year is simple arithmetic. The statistic produced isn’t particularly meaningful though.

If 20% of a seniority list leaves every year then the time to flow numbers are 26% vs 29%. If it’s 10% then it’s 16 vs 19. Very much makes a difference in how long hire to flow takes

This is no different than the scenario at PSA, or Envoy.

I suspect you are relatively junior. Perhaps once you get in the top 300 or so on the seniority list, once outside attrition dries up, you’ll understand why a flow rate 50% lower than PDT’s makes a big difference. 20% of the top 300 are not leaving outside of the flow, and once you get within the top 200, there is nearly zero outside attrition. I imagine you believe you’re going to get the call from Delta as soon as you hit 1,000 hours P.I.C. - I sincerely hope you do.

You guys can carry on without further input from me. I’ve made enough effort trying to explain why 9% is 50% more than 6%, and how it matters. It’s not my job to change your personal reality.

Where can I sign up to start top 20% seniority at Piedmont?

"Piedmonster" LOL

There are derogatory names for all of us, I'm sure:
SkyWorst
Brown Streak
Mesa
etc...