PSA & PDT:Industry Leading Race to the Bottom
 

Interesting how the only one that chose not to stand united with the rest of the regional industry at the beginning of this year was the Piedmont MEC. Now it makes sense.

Willfully perpetuating the pilots competing with pilots for aircraft scenario. Willfully lowering the longterm regional pilot compensation at ALL airlines in exchange for a short cut for a few. Willfully putting pilots at other carriers in a position of losing their jobs and seniority for a quicker upgrade or job at mainline. YOU ALL COMPLAIN ABOUT GREED AT THE EXECUTIVE LEVEL, LOOK IN THE MIRROR! PSA & Piedmont are so d%mn greedy and entitled they chose to be the only ones unwilling to stop the whipsaw. Taking paycuts just for growth, at AE's (and whole industry's) expense? All you hear is selfish justification from them, but the fact remains that their YES votes hurt, and will damage in the future, a lot of individuals and families for many years to come. Thanks once more for degrading our profession when we were on the cusp of reversing this race to the bottom.

You realize why AMR is going to continue to separate Piedmont and PSA? Don't be fooled by the different type argument. Whipsaw 101 of managing labor costs.

Wow, PDT voting hasn't even been completed yet and you are already calling them a bottom feeder leading the race to the bottom. WHEN all these years they have IN FACT lead this industry hence the reason why they are the size they are with planes expiring.

They should vote no to protect YOUR career while you bad mouth them before they even vote? You have some balls kid, I suggest you fill out a PDT application because they are going to put you out of business with that mouth

I dont work at AE. My job is not in jeopardy, and neither is PDTs, nor was PSAs. I appreciate PDTs history, but should you lower the bar in 2014 of all times for jets, I stand by my claims of greed and absolute narcissism. Win new flying without having to lower the bar, that's all everyone is saying. Should you all vote NO, I will happily apologize to PDT pilots.

All Envoy pilots seem to do is bad mouth everyone else in the industry. Envoy thought they were too big to be closed down and called Parker's bluff to find out he wasn't bluffing now they are upset because PSA and PDT are choosing jobs versus unemployment which in turn will cause a long line of Eagle pilots at the local unemployment office. If Eagle can't consent to a more competitive contract than AAG doesn't want them and contrary to the Eagle pilot group's beliefs AAG DOES NOT NEED THEM. think about it. Eagle flying is already being farmed out to Mesa, ExpressJet, PSA, Piedmont, Republic, and Compass all because they will fly it for less than the mainline salaries eagle pilots want. The mainline guys are certainly not trying to stop this for you either so I guess maybe you should deny your jump seats to the entire pilot community now. ExpressJet did not hold the line for Eagle, they voted for themselves based on their personal needs. They are certainly not having an issue taking Eagle flying out if DFW. Same with Republic. Think about it

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Pure class right here.

In light of the huge blow to Envoy yesterday how can you possibly in any way think this is a true statement? You are living in a dream world.

Terrible day for Envoy pilots but it proves an unfortunate point that Envoy's honorable gamble was the incorrect stance.

AAG has its WO carriers beat and they know it.

Really their jobs are not in jeopardy? How do you figure this? They are losing 47 aircraft to PSA and possibly the all the 140's too. Are the actually loosing so many pilots that attrition alone will cover this reduction in flying? I think not look for the furlough and downgrade announcement in 2015

Saturn, are you even a pilot?

The regional industry is just as strong as it's weakest link(s)... Who knows what would of happened if neither PSA nor Pinnacle voted in concessions.

This XJT guy is going to bad mouth you now too. PSA pilots are weak pathetic back stabbing scum. You will never ever ride my jumpseat. I wouldn't allow you the opportunity to taint my cockpit or my FO with your yellow bellied drivel. PSA pilots gave concessions in the face of record profits and massive attrition. You morons are all hopeless. Enjoy your welfare, food stamps and mommies basement.

Wow you must feel great about taking Envoy's flying while denying PSA pilots. Talk about baking the cake and eating it too! I don't know what concessions you guys keep referring to because it's been proven on so many occasions that PSA has the potential to make the most and have best QOL in the regionals. Now that's a fact.

A couple years at Skywest. I'd say Saturn is qualified to judge us. He's god's gift to aviation.

I don't think their jobs are in jeopardy. AAG is making room for the E-Jets plus the flow has plenty of room to increase. This news is just to lock in the PDT vote but would have happened anyway. It is an obvious business decision to have consolidated feet types. Any airlines biggest mistake is what they accept not what they reject. Eagle accepted a BK contract, and surrendered a fleet plan and ownership of their airplanes for flow rights that are taking longer than the assumed. What was not calculated was metering the flow for so long.

AAG has proven that what we all thought would happen is true.

They were not bluffing. Our threat was "vote this in or the 900s go to Mesa." Obviously they were more than prepared to make this a reality.

The war cry of "no one can staff" is a fallacy. PSA has almost doubled their pilot group in less than 8 months. Mesa is filling classes and Compass is flooded with apps.

I'm not happy about any of this but the hardcore "hold the line" guys need to think rationally at this point and protect their jobs.(At wholly owns at least)

All you Eagle guys were very vocal a few months ago "I don't care, burn it down!!!!" Now you are angry that "burning it down" has become a reality?

The 700s were going away regardless of how your vote turned out at Eagle. You've known that for a year now. Why is it all of a sudden PSAs fault?

The seniority system combined with fragmented "local only" unions unfortunately creates this problem. This cycle will continue until there is either a regional only pilot union, or one seniority list at the regional level. Both of those scenarios are pipe dreams.

Piedmont has been the one holding the line for years and working towards improving the industry with continuing negotiations that have left us within a couple years of the desert, why do you think Piedmont hasn't been refleeted in 30 years moron?? Glad you all have finally joined the fight to improve the industry, we've fought for an industry leading prop contract that's better than a lot of jet operators and now we are almost out of business, glad everyone else has finally "joined the fight" but several of the jet operators, mesa and psa have continually undercut and screwed us over and now we have nothing left, you don't know what you're talking about shut up you should appreciate what the piedmont pilots have tried to do for years, stop blaming us.

Yes I am a pilot, and I am on the outside looking in on this as it regards to AA FFD. The purpose of having multiple regional carriers contracted out is to create competition amongst them to keep costs low. The purpose today of having a wholly owned regional is to set the lowest rate, having direct oversight of labor costs. Look no further than Endeavor and DL. The pilot profession as we all know has had a lower standard of living year over year. It's sad to see it continue, especially when it's perpetuated by professionals vs professionals, instead of company vs company. Pilots are always a few short of standing together as one to bring improvement for all.

PSA didn't choose job vs unemployment. They are choosing between making 2000 a month and 2100 a month. I m sorry, but I fail to see how us eagle guys are greedy by refusing to fly at 1990's rate. We all had an opportunity to change the industry for the best, starting by being a cohesive group of pilots. PSA yes voters, you helped destroying any chance we had. Enjoy flying the envoy crj 700 as FO for fast food wages. God forbid, you don't get to upgrade for 6,7 years ; you will be stuck with that paycheck well into 2020's and considering the increase in cost of living, have fun being poor. Me, I m more than happy to move on with my head held high and go make some money somewhere else that doesn't involve AAG.

And contrary to popular belief, my QOL improved 10 fold after this contract went into affect. I'm home more than I used to be, I make considerably more than I used to make as I almost solely fly trips at 150% pay which resulted in about a 30k per year pay raise and don't worry I live in base 20 minutes from the airport so I won't be looking to contaminant your jump seat any time soon on my commute to work. I do have a few friends at XJT though. One just finished IOE at PSA after 2 years over there, one starts training in the next class, and another guy is thinking about leaving for PSA after 3.5 years at XJT. In the mean time a small handful of XJT guys bad mouth PSA while they ramp up to take more Eagle flying to secure their own futures.

It's so nice to see the rest of the industry finally realize what scumbags psa pilots are, we've been going toe to toe fighting against them for years and it always ends the same, they happily take concessions to get airplanes. Did you know the jets psa has been flying for the last decade were supposed to come to Piedmont? We were winning in every category as far as performance etc to have the jets placed here and in desperation at the 11th hour psa offered concessions to steal the jets, welcome to the party envoy grab some punch, but please don't put us in the same group as that swine

If it's that easy to get a job somewhere that doesn't involve AAG then why are we all not out making money at mainline somewhere? Maybe Delta or UAL will hire you which would be great and I wish you the best, or maybe you will go to a low cost carrier with an insecure future, or you will be forced to fly for another regional in which case Compass, ExpressJet, PSA, PDT, Mesa, Republic, Wisconsin, etc all deal with AAG. That unfortunately really narrows your options.

You forgot asia...

+1

Where is Lee Moak now with his "stopping the race to the bottom" campaign? How does one say he wants to stop the whipsaw then allows a TA like this to go out to the pilots????

Ok. Maybe only 50 people remain from that decision in 2002. Out of 900.
We voted no to 900's in 2007. Mesa got them.
We voted yet again in 2011. Mesa got 900's.
We voted in a new contract in 2013. Some great improvements.
I'm willing to comparing W2's to see who is a bottom feeder.
This TA we signed last year was for 900's. Nothing to do with 700's. The reason envoy is losing them is because you failed to play ball with Parker. It has nothing to do with XJT/PSA/PDT...

Yeah have fun with that. Guess you are single with no family to worry about. Expat flying sucks, but to each their own. Don't know of anyone off hand in Asia right now, but do know guys at Qatar and Emirates and they hate it.

He cares about main line only. ALPA doesn't give a **** about the regionals. They need to get this passed and taken care of so they can ramp up for Delta's negotiations next year. The FFD carriers are a drop in the bucket to ALPA's funding so the faster they can get a TA drafted and out of the way the better off they are

No, he just pilots a Saturn

Not for airlines. it is because I have a family that I am willing to pursue opportunities like these.
After 10 years trying to educate people about the risks of undercutting for possible personal gain and Until people in this industry are willing to fight for decent work conditions and appropriate wages, me and my family will be provided for by a boss who cares and values our skills. Clearly we can't expect that in the US at this time. But you are right, to each their own.

I'm sick and tired of hearing all of you Envoy pilots bashing other pilot groups for your problems. You all had an opportunity to vote for an agreement that would give you all job security, but you all chose to not to accept it. The loss of your flying and aircraft are purely from your own decision not to accept the company's offer. You can not go blaming others for your own decision.

A side note, PDT stand to get a huge raise if they vote in jets. The pay will be way more than their current turboprop rate. I fail to see how that is a concession.

COMAIR - extremely senior pilot group, topped out on pay scale, shut down, airplanes spread out to ASA, Pinnacle, MESA, Chautauqua, shuttle America. REPUBLIC group votes no five years later with Comairs flying and you all praise them "WAY TO GO REPUBLIC WOO HOO, HOLD THAT LINE." Maybe PSA can fly envoys 700's and in 5 years say no and you all can praise them.

CONTINENTAL EXPRESS/EXPRESSJET - senior group, top scale, great contract. Once spun off from continental ownership CAL axed 60 jets and awarded them to Chautauqua(now republic) whom everyone praises now for voting no. Well maybe PSA can take envoys planes and in 5 years vote no and you'll praise them! NOW EXPRESSJET with the refusal of cuts is now parking an additional 35? This year and 55 ?next year.

AIR WISCONSIN - senior group, great contract United said cut pay or your done, they refused cuts United axed them faster than you can say "piedmont vote no". United then took that flying and gave it to Skywest/shuttle America/ASA. 5 years later they all vote no and they are heroes? Maybe PSA can fly envoys 700's and in 5 years vote no and they'll be praised HEROES! Only reason whiskey is alive today is because they (company) paid US to play, contract is up in 2015

does anyone see a pattern here? OH YEAH......ENVOY

ENVOY - extremely senior pilot group, top of pay scales, flying being shipped out to REPUBLIC "hey how is our miami base and flying republic, thanks for voting no and holding that line" shipped out to SKYWEST(of whom operates their US 200 flying in PHX that took MESA's flying all at a loss because it was cheaper than letting them sit in the desert....GREAT COMPANY) but they are holding that line " hey Skywest in eagle titles, how's our DFW, ORD, flying, thanks for holding that line I look forward to applying because your respected for taking our flying" shipped out to COMPASS ( oh wait they are an awesome pilot group it's ok you can have our flying and future because you guys voted in enhancements!). They got eagles flying because a new younger pilot group on the bottom of the pay scale can double their pay and still be cheaper than Envoy. "Hey compass how's our ORD flying, thanks for doing a great job holding that line, I look forward to applying there to fly the same routes I have been flying the past 20 years"

You really can't read the writing on the wall..............
- regional industry with no solid unions, 800 different carriers, the old/senior/highest paid WILL be recycled into newer younger lower pay scaled companies if they don't play by their mainline's playbook.

Wait, I know what your saying Compass, republic, ASA, etc didn't take anyone's flying it was givin to them............YOUR RIGHT! BECAUSE YOUR YOUNG AND CHEAP

PSA is a 450 pilot group, extremely young, 5% top of scale. YOUNG AND CHEAP hence 47 of Envoys planes were taken from top of scales to younger 2 year pilots. PSA pilots did not scheme together to your planes. They played by mainline's playbook to secure NEW 900's to secure their future and not wind up like the top. You forget we stood up for you guys, this industry before, voting no TWICE for 900's starting in 2006.......they took them to republic made them 175's and we furloughed, went on welfare, lived in mommas basement...but "bit hey republic thanks for holding that line with our planes awesome group love them" Then before our voting was concluded, you called us names, threatened etc etc etc, he'll you all probably convinced many of us to vote yes, why would we want to protect you any further? you guys didn't give a s@/$ about us then when we furloughed and suffered NOW all of a sudden you care?

Well said....

No it's not a raise !! Have you even looked at the TA ???
Feel free to work for free, seriously.

"Why is it all of a sudden PSAs fault?"

Because Envoy needs someone to blame because they can never take responsibility and ownership for anything. They are their own worst enemy. "Stop The Whipsaw" they scream all day, however if they were getting 47 more planes they wouldn't be so worried about it. Let us know when it's ok to come by and pick up the keys boys!


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ASA is young and cheap? Where did you get that idea? Nothing could be further from the truth.

300 senior pilots left at envoy
That is all that have topped out

Don't lose sight on this, envoy, you have sooo many pilots with 15 plus years of seniority even 10 years for example. A 10 year guy at psa is number 100 in our seniority list, where are your 10 year guys? Even IF we had your EXACT contract it would still be much cheaper to operate those 7's at PSA then at Eagle. Would you love us then, no! It sucks, we don't want your planes, we don't have a choice, we have far to many 1-2 year guys here now that are upgrading of whom were 15-20 year Comair guys, you see?

Ok so the raise at PDT would be on average about 1-1.5$ an hour, over 4 and 10 years... Who cares about the fact that they will be flying double the size airplanes... What a joke !!

Current contract for Fo pay :
32.61$ per hour average over 4 years on dash 8
35.83$ per hour average over 10 years on dash 8
2014 TA :
32.61$ per hour average over 4 years on dash 8
33.91$ per hour average over 4 years on up to 76 seats planes
35.83$ per hour average over 10 years on dash 8
37.05$ per hour average over 10 years on up to 76 seats planes.

For starters, I work for the real Expressjet. I have never flown anything for AA. Keep telling yourself what you have to, to sleep at night. The fact is, you guys screwed the entire FFD sector abd yourselves. When you finish your trip and plop down on a moldy sofa in your moms basement where you live, you can sit there and tell yourself hiw great your QOL is. AAG executives will enjoy the pay bump.

So when are you Regional Guys going to dump ALPA? Clearly they do not have your best interest at heart. While USAPA and soon to be APA may not be perfect, I'll take my chances with an independent union any day of the week over ALPA!

GHOST

Do you really need to be such an arrogant prick ? Seriously...
As far as I am concerned, you can come and pick up the keys now... Well tomorrow. I m off today.