skyhigh, i think your situation may be more unique than the majority of the working public. My fiance' is a teacher (as we all know, they're underpaid) but her typical schedule is working everyday of the week, when she gets off work, she's at home grading homework assignments from the five classes that she has, she'll basically get friday night off, and can relax all day saturday. On sunday however, she's making plans for the rest of the upcoming week, making tests, and ensuring that she's got all her homework and tests finally graded to be given back to the kids.

Airline pilots on the other hand are getting a minimum of 2 days off work a week (typically) and often 3...and when we're off, we're off...period. A couple co-workers of mine were making comments on their childhood, saying, their fathers worked, and when their father came home from work, they were typically in bed already. On the weekends (when dad wasn't working) he would be working on the home, or trying his best to recover from the long working week. I know that our job can be tiring at times, but, i typically still have the energy to enjoy myself when i get home on those days off, can relax, and when i finally have a family, will be able to spend that time with them.

With your self-employment you get to work when you want, relax when you want, play when you want, and "live the dream". I highly doubt that anyone would say a person wont make more money being self employed versus working for "the man", just about everyone knows that it's true you'll make more money working for yourself than for anyone else. However, you'll often work longer and hard than anyone else also, and if you fail, your failure can be complete (basically, there's a lot riding on the line, and that can be a dangerous place to position your family)

Also, your constant comment on spending $100k on your aviation education shouldn't be a deterrent from becoming a pilot, but should be the clue to stay away from universities and flight academy's that are going to cost you $100,000 to graduate. Heck, my fiance' has $60k in debt for a career which allows her to take home less money than i do every month. And she's the "highly in demand Math teacher" and still had a hard time finding a job. Grass isn't always greener i guess.

Sent :)

...

Plumbers, electricians etc. all start out as apprentices for 5 years, making far less. I fail to see your point. Yes you have earning POTENTIAL in the fields you are saying, but you have that same potential as an airline pilot.

For every car salesman making 80k, I'll find you a used car schmo who is feasting on Raman tonight. EVERY field has a range of incomes. I want to find something that has a higher POTENTIAL income and QOL than what I'm doing now, and that I'd enjoy doing. I think a pilot is a good fit because I enjoy it, and I've been able to "beat the odds" through hard work and networking before.

Police in SF make $66K a year but look at the cost of living in California. Thats still nothing compared to what they have to spend on housing, gas and raising a family.

The thing I wouldlike to say about Skyhigh's initial post is that from reading htis post and other airline pilot websits is I see that folks are just centered on being pilots for the rest of their lives. They just want to fly the line. If I do become an airline pilt, I dont just want to be a line pilot for the rest of my life. I would like to eventually be a check airman, chief pilot or management pilot. Thats wher ethe money is. But most people are just content with flying the plane and going home. Dont want the extra headaches.

If I dont become an airline pilot Iwould do something else inaviation like get a masters degree in education and teach aviation at a university or maybe get into law enforcement aviation or maybe get a job with the FAA checking NAV aides. The possibilities are endless when it comes to aviation careers but folks here are stuck on airline flying. One thing I will agree with Skyhigh onis being an airline pilot is not as prestgeous as it used to be but ther eare other pilot careers out there.

Yep, got all my ratings for $27k. Don't know if that's good or bad, but it's a lot less than the oft-mentioned $100k.

whatever you want to say about skyhigh, he does perform a valuable service. The more people he discourages away from being a pilot, the more slots open up for me :D

There are a lot of KoolAid drinkers on this forum...Skyhigh has legitimate points

No, but if the cop is working in a big city they have a huge bullseye on their chest. Of course, the little town cops might sit around in the donut shop but going out in an drug/crime infested area where some gangbanger will shoot me in a second is not my idea of an ideal career. I definitely respect people that do this but you really couldn't pay me enough.

Overtime? You all complain about working too much as it is and now you are talking about the ability to work overtime? Ha ha That's pretty funny. A pilot wanting to work 40 hours a week plus overtime. Excuse me, my stomach is hurting from laughing about that.

Good point. Good point. :D

This is yet another re-tread of the same things he always says when he starts talking about this. It is well known that owning and running a small business can be a fantastic way to build wealth. It is also well known, that working as an employee doesnt often yield the same results, particularly in an entry level position. It seems to me that he makes an "apples to oranges" comparison.

I worked one summer as a construction laborer. It didnt take long to realize that most of the people that I worked with were drunk, stoned or sometimes both. Believe it or not, I worked for one of the more reputable contractors in my area. Maybe construction workers on the west coast get paid well, but in my area, the only people that take those jobs these days are Hispanics. If these jobs were the fantastic paying jobs that he thinks they are, there would be much more competition for them. Obviously, regional differences have an impact. Any construction worker that makes a reasonable living can also expect to be making more or less the same wage his entire career with no possibility of career progression. At least in aviation, there is a chance that some pilots will make it to the next higher level.

The police officer analogy is also weak. Even when police officers are off duty, they are still often carrying their guns and badges with them, as they are required to provide assistance if they encounter something.

UPS and FedEx delivery drivers can also make a reasonably good living. However, as others have already pointed out, they work *very* hard for that wage.

I am currently married and we are happy. I am far from a loner, and your belief that it is impossible to have a successful marriage and family with this job is proof that your head is in the sand. It is proof that you live in denial. You are correct in the fact that there are pilots with failed marriages. But guess what...there are policemen, lawyers, doctors, construction workers, garbage men, grocery clerks, dentists, teachers, contractors, etc with failed marriages as well. They can also live in a world of denial. Perhaps the only way you deal with the fact that you left something you love is to continually talk down against it and subcontiously tell yourself that you don't miss it. Perhaps that is the only way you can deal with what you feel was a mistake. Everyones life is different, and that is something you cannot deny.

His arguments are weak. He uses the same examples and same situations in every post he makes, and it is impossible to cover the many different situations that pilots in America experience. I got all of my ratings for less then $20,000. Thats a fifth of the so called $100,000 debt that everyone apparently has. Many of the occupations he states make more in fact make far less than I do where I live. And good for him that he found a business that works for him, but not everyone can or wants to do that. Once again, he bases many things on his individual situation and thinks thats how everyone elses life is.:rolleyes:

The irony of this thread going off on a tangent is its one that takes place on an almost monthly basis around here just under a different title. I think Skyhigh gets his rocks off by throwing flame bait out there and watching everyone just go nuts on him.

I dont even know what that means Kool Aid drinkers.

The time before (wife, kids,mortgage,car payments, cub scouts, soccer, etc) I guess?

I want a job that's not too demanding
Like where you do a lot of standing
No way to be an elevator operator
No way a salesman, no way a waiter
Cause I'm a gentleman, gentleman of leisure

The classified ads got nothing too appealing
I don't know, but I just got the feeling
I might take a while to find a position
With a pretty secretary, time to do some fishing
Cause I'm a gentleman, gentleman of leisure

I'm a gentleman
Gentleman of leisure
Set me in the sun
Gentleman of leisure
Let me take my time
Bet you I can please you

Forty-hour week - can't you make it thirty
No heavy lifting - you get yourself dirty
Beautiful office - thirty-seven floors
Paintings on the wall
Title on the door says,
Gentleman of Leisure

I look nice in a clean white collar
Take-home pay, O say a million dollars
I'll keep looking, never say die
Somebody, somewhere is looking for a guy
Who's a gentleman, gentleman of leisure

by Jesse Winchester
Performed byJimmy Buffett
©Musique Chanteclair Inc

Kansas...
 

Did you go to ksu?

I understand what you're saying but it would cost me far more to move to my domicile than commute and commuting cost me less than $150 per month. PHX is a strong market for my wife's career and there're 29 daily flights to my domicile of DEN. Here soon I’ll be able to hold TUS which is only a 2 hour drive for me.

Also, I don't know anyone who has $100K in student loans, unless you're including college and even then they are only around $80K. Most all of my friends spent in between $30K-60K, I personal spent 42K on my FLT training and $23K on college. I worked for 5 years in sales and was very successful. I was able to pay for most of my training out of my own pocket and I invested wisely with the rest. Our future looks great regardless of my position and income.

Everyone's situation is different and that is what everyone needs to understand.

Dr. Sky...
 

Sky puts his crazy posts here because no one else cares to discuss the deeper significance in aviation, like how it might affect us as human beings and what it is in aviation that makes us what we are. His musings are wry, thoughtful, impassioned, genuine, and topical if not statistically correct. He is prone to exaggeration but it is clear that he is interested in what others have to say, and he cares about the airlines or the image of life they supposedly represent. He's not just a case of sour grapes, because anyone who likes an exchange of alternate views, a discussion of values, an appraisal of the status quo, and has experienced multiple lifestyles deserves an open ear and reasonably commands one. Keep up the good work! (And how about getting back on with Alaska?)

"Sky puts his crazy posts here because no one else cares to discuss the deeper significance in aviation, like how it might affect us as human beings and what it is in aviation that makes us what we are. His musings are wry, thoughtful, impassioned, genuine, and topical if not statistically correct. He is prone to exaggeration but it is clear that he is interested in what others have to say, and he cares about the airlines or the image of life they supposedly represent. He's not just a case of sour grapes, because anyone who likes an exchange of alternate views, a discussion of values, an appraisal of the status quo, and has experienced multiple lifestyles deserves an open ear and reasonably commands one. Keep up the good work! (And how about getting back on with Alaska?)"

"Psychobabble is a customarily pejorative term to denote technical jargon that is used outside of its intended purpose in psychology. It implies that the speaker lacks the experience and understanding necessary for proper use of various psychological term(s). Frequent use can expand a clinical word to include less meaningful buzzword meanings. Some psychological buzzwords have come into widespread use in business management training, motivational seminars, self-help and folk psychology. These words may be over-used by lay persons in describing behavioral or emotional difficulties as clinical maladies, when such nomenclature is neither valuable, meaningful, or appropriate." (Source: Wikipedia)

Forgive me. I just couldn't resist it. :rolleyes:

The vast majority of us actually enjoy flying, and realize that the idiots that got into flying just for the sake of looking cool, women, status, etc., are usually the ones that can't fly for sh*t.

No I went into flying as a professional, to earn a good living and retirement. Flying is great, but I can safely say I love spending time with my family more.

I fly to make money NUMBER ONE. The fact that this is a job I enjoy is not a bargaining chip for me....

I can think of things much more fun than sitting in an rj for 3 hrs.

it's just as bad to fly for fun as it is to fly for babes.. in the end it's a job, and it's to earn income, setup for retirement, and pay for your kids college.

I have over 100k in student loans. So now ya know one person.

You're not alone...Search for "Key Loans" on this forum...A while back there was an very scary thread developing about student loans and crushing debt.

-LAFF

That's excessive, no offense. It's also tragic that you have that much in student loans and will struggle to live while you earn FO wages for 2-4 years.

Where did you go to school and does that include ALL living expenses? If so then how much did your actual training cost. If you spent 100K on aviation training then I'd be gathering a few friends and talking to a lawyer.

No offense! If I were you and I know I’m not, I'd not go to the first airline that comes around. Go were you can make a decent living at and airline that has a good future.

I have a friend that was a captain for ATA. He left ATA an angry man. He hated the airlines. For about a year he told anyone who was thinking of being an airline pilot that he was making a big mistake!! He finally relized that he really missed flying. He now is a 737 captain...once again!!!

P.S. He's loven' it!!!

Pooch, where'd ya get the avatar of Skyhigh?

Lets keep in mind boys and girls that the grass is always greener over the septic tank.

The notion of a period of time where no pilots apply out of protest for wages is like one poster said a delusion of granduer. Its also a delusion to think that currently employed line pilots will all take a stand and refuse to fly until wages are brought back to reasonable levels. All of the folks on here that outwardly scream about banding together as a pilot group to wage war against management secretly just vote in these **** poor contracts anyway. Do I think pilot pay is a joke right now? ABSOLUTELY. Am I a line pilot just for the sheer joy of flying? NOT ANYMORE. As much as I abhor management and what they feel is equitable pay for what we do (which is a joke), if I take a stand and try to rise up against the man for better wages and QOL I know most of the rest of the pilot group will leave my cheese twisting in the wind. Sad to say it but you know its true.

<<--Texas Telecom worker and CWA union member. 60k a year, full beni's and a 401k 100% match. You know what. I start my training soon. And I cant wait to give all I have up to fly full time. I cant stand how easy and boring this job is. 8 years, and by the time I make a switch to full time flight I will probably have 13 years in this company. But I would give it all up just to be happy doing something I actually enjoyed. $ or not, nice car or not, I want to be happy when I work. So what if my car isnt brand new and flashy, I get to fly.

Your company matches 100% of what you put into your 401(k)?? Holy #$@!. That is a good deal. We only get 100% of 7%. You can save over $30k/yr in your 401(k) then, do that for another 10 years and retire early. %(#@ working!!

I'm with you bro!!!

I can relate! I have been with UPS for 12 years...5 as a part timer working various shifts and going to college. 3 yrs full time as a car washer and the last 4 as a driver. I work from from 8:30 to 7 :30. Yeah I make 80K and great benifits but I want to fly for a living! Money is not everything that is for sure. Life is to short to waste it doing something you dislike just for the money. So in the meantime I am aquiring ratings completing my degree so I can change careers!

I totally agree with you, you have to do what you want to with your life and I want to fly for living as many other guys in this forum. The low wages are all about to change guys pretty soon. The demand just keep growing and the supply can not keep up with it.

I have a college degree and I make about 14 dollars an hour flight instructing and it is not paying my rent sometimes, but I love flying. And I can not considering doing something else.

good luck to all you :)

KDUA

Why complain about what pilots make on here. If you are complaining about a pilot's salary then there is no need to be on here because you obviously do not want to be a pilot. Flying is a privledge that only few can do. I personally love it. I was a firefighter for a major city. Made good money especially with overtime and I was a Blackhawk helicopter pilot for the army national guard so I made a double income. I was living the good life. Being a firefighter was incredible, something I loved, but I loved flying more. Here I am a regional jet pilot and I love it. I could care less what I make. I am happy, my wife is happy, and that is all that matters. If you come on here and complain about the type of money pilot's make then you must be a wanna be pilot who probably failed several check rides and could not make it as a pilot anywhere. I fell sorry for you. For the rest of us who are happy, I am right there with you:)

Working Hobby
 

Aviation is descending into a working hobby. You guys might love aviation but it most likely will not love you back especially if you are not there seeking a real income. In time you will begin to see my point.

SkyHigh

Skyhigh, You just dont get it and it appears you never will. People enter aviation the same reason they become policeman and firefighters. For the love of what they do, not to become rich. I am a detective with a Sheriff's Office in Florida and have been doing this job for 8+ years. I gross about 45K that is with no overtime. I could make 70K but my QOL would go way down, I would have to work 7 days a week. There are some areas of the country where cops make more but the cost of living pretty much balances it out. 100K a year to do what cops and firefighters do would not be enough in my opinion. I have been spit on, bitten, got in knock down drag out fights with drunks and crackheads where I was litterally fighting for my life, seen all kinds of nasty suicides, murder scenes, car wrecks, you name it. I tell you the negativity of this job gets to you after a while. Stop trying to drag people down for wanting to do what they love. Your incorrectly comparing other careers to aviation and you are not going to change anyone's mind on this forum. I just finished up my PPL and I am pursuing an aviation career. Being a cop is not worth it anymore. People have no respect for you or human life for that matter. The Justice System is a joke. Oh and you say a meth addicted construction worker makes 43K? I know meth heads. They dont work, they steal and do meth.

Hopefully less pilots train for the profession
 

Personally I chuckle at Sky High's view of the Aviation Profession, but I actually don't mind the rant overall because I hope less and less people learn to fly as time goes on. That alone will keep the QOL and pay up. A major dental school wanted to double its output of Dentist and the Dental Association told the school it would not certify them if the school did that. Other professions have some control over supply and demand into their fields. Our's would be better off if we did too.

We are already seeing major flight schools closing in my area. One in particular was in business for nearly 40 years. I think people are seeing the managment tactics in this industry and have begun to shy away from it hopefully. Plus the population is so over extended with credit that people are finding it hard to spend 30K on flying in addition to 40K for college.

Personally, I still think if you have the drive and are willing to take the long haul to a great profession you will end up in the driver's seat someday of that plane or company you want to work for. I grew up poor, and didn't have any friends or family members in aviation, and it worked out for me.

What SkyHigh fails to see is that the network and professional life that you live for the first (plus or minus 10 years) is that thing called experience, and that is why you can't just jump into a job at FedEx, UPS, or SWA. SkyHigh doesn't have the experience to get hired because he wasn't willing to wait until it came with time; not because he wasn't military, didn't know anyone, or wasn't attractive enough.:rolleyes:

SkyHigh
 

I understand what you mean and I wasn't willing to wait. My generation started out with the real expectations of getting hired at a major while still in our 20's. UAL had a hard minimum of 250 hours total time and a commercial licence. Had I known I would have to invest most of two decades to reach a point where I could even apply to a major (40 years old in most cases) I never would have taken lesson one.

The efforts and sacrifices are long and difficult. In the most can expect only a one in three chance at a decent job after 20 years of sacrifice is ludicrous. My point is that this is just a job (and a mediocre one at that)and not a life quest. There are much easier jobs to get that offer a better life and more overall pay.

SkyHigh

Do what you love
 

Maybe people need to be dragged down and have their faces rubbed in the obvious in order to make a change. The lust for flight is intoxicating and inspires self delusion.

I am not promoting that everyone become a cop. I like to use it as an example since it is a common job and the facts are easily verifiable. I do however have several ex-pilot friends who are now police officers and love it. They also earn a real living complete with fully funded retirements accounts.


SkyHigh