The future of work
 

Since being out of aviation I have been shocked to discover what the outside world earns for seemingly low rung jobs. Police, fire and UPS delivery men earn a regional captains wage after only a few years. My wife's uncle retired from delivering for UPS for 20 years and is very well off because of it. Last week a family friend accepted a position with a local auto dealership to be a finance specialist. His base is 80K and has the ability to hit 120k through commissions.

In America today we are blessed with a robust and generous university system. More than at any other time it is easy for anyone to get a college degree. Universities, community colleges and technical schools compete for students. All are interested in securing better pay and working conditions, but are they?

When one takes a look at the world of word the results seem puzzling. How is it that a ten year regional airline captain barely bests a UPS delivery guy? Why does a meth addicted construction worker net 43K per year in my area?

The reason is that increasingly people will trade pay and benefits for an interesting sounding job. Currently those with a little ambition and focus look to college for what they think will lead them to a better life and job. Occupations that require some skill and dedication in the blue collar sector are being passed up by people who think the rainbow lies with a higher education.

As the years pass certified plumbers, electricians and telecommunications workers will earn more than airline pilots and lower rung business executives. Hey wait a minute, they already do earn more.

SkyHigh

You can have the blue collar jobs. I'm tired of breaking my back in the heat and cold, sweating all day long and being sore. This job is sooooo easy. I like it, and YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THAT. :D

dude..all u do is whine and complain on this board...your self-employed...go to a website that entertains self-employment...and u r wrong..none of those jobs pay more than i make and i am an airline pilot..we all know why regional pilots make what they do...i love what i do and wouldn't trade it for anything except for a winning powerball ticket...my higher education was needed for my job and i also learned a little something...so give it up..u failed..now leave it alone!

It's very sad, but most pilots really don't care what they get paid. They just want to fly. I would bet that even if some of them were homeless they would not complain as long as they could keep flying.

It just is what it is and you and I both know that. I hope that one day the pilot pay will finally level off and remain stable. No, the pay isn't what it used to be, but you can still live comfortably for the rest of your days. People are always out to make a quick million but let's face it, thats not gonna happen in this industry anymore.

On our second day of class at UPS, we went out with a UPS driver all day. He can have all that big huge CASH! We were out 8:30am to 7:00pm. Uh, no thanks.

Secondly, a construction worker SHOULD net 43K or more. They work their a$$ off.

Skyhigh, have you actually ever worked a labor intensive job? It sure doesn't sound like it.

You need to give it up or get back into flying.

In just a few years???? A good friend of mine is a UPS delivery driver. He spent 7 years as a package loader just to get the seinority to hold a driver position. That was 8 years ago. He makes just about what a 3 year CA makes at most regionals. And he works his A$$ off.

The industry, as bad as it is, still provides a quicker way to get to decent pay as compared to those "seemingly low rung jobs".

Now before I get flamed, I do not think that we get paid enough for what we do. I was merely stating some facts to add to this discussion.

i think we can all agree this guy is a tool...failed in his aviation career and wants some sort of justification

while I appreciate your defense of our profession.. I think it merits noting that as a FDX bus captain you're at the top of the income wrung in aviation, and fortunate enough to work for a financially solid employer with a booming market. Too many pilots today DO work for crap wages (which in the long run will effect your ability to remain at the top of the wrung), and are below the UPS truck driver, or plumber's wage for a lot more hours spent at work.. so this is a problem that has to be dealt with by unity and unions, not ad hominem attacks on messengers of bad new.

Sorry if this comes off like an attack on you, but it's not.. it's just a wake up call.

Looks like SkyHigh has another username.:rolleyes:

well, add my name to the list then, YES.. there are cheap dates in our profession.

you guys skyhigh is just ****ed because someone took him down a peg in another thread. he is an ex horizon guy that left before times got better. maybe he doesn't know what its like to fly anymore. i did roofing, framing and sales. i quit roofing and framing for the same reasons. i could see myself turning 30 and looking like 50.(i worked with several people that went down that path, not much older than me, but WORN out.) then i did sales. sure i did good but i got sick and tired of trying to pressure someone in to getting something that in reality they didn't really NEED. so good luck to you out there sky high. i will enjoy working 14 days this month, and having 16 days off. and you are incorrect about police, fire, and ups guys earning a captains wage after a couple years. first of all, very few police and firemen pull in 70 grand a year. second most ups drivers are part time so they aren't entitled to benifits such as health care, 401k, and all the other stuff that workers should be entitled to. so you see, your negative outlook on the airline industry is misplaced. i think where you need to be looking is why you can still get on these boards everyday and tell us why we should hate our jobs so much.. sounds like you really miss it here, and you know misery loves company.

Isn't a crash-pad similar to a homeless shelter? It sure sound like it from descriptions you hear...

-LAFF

True, look at MESA. Anyone that accepts sleeping in an airplane needs to riot against their company and have some serious changes made.

wake up call for what?..he is out of the business and comes on here bitching about wages and the profession he no longer is in.. we all know what the wages and conditions are...do we need him on here reminding everyone on how bad things can get..review his posts...still a tool

I agree with Captain Mark...skyhigh is just a pain to have on this forum. I have never once seen a positive thread coming from him. Every job has its positives and negatives. Being an airline pilot is a dream and many people love doing it. Yes you might get paid **** wages your first year but it gets better. It all depends on the decisions you make and your outlook on life. If you make good decisions and have a positive outlook you will get to that well paying job flying nice equipment. If you're always negative then no one wants to listen to you (or recommend you into their company!)You can tell that Skyhigh is miserable with everything.

if his motive is as a "hater" and someone trying to rain on our parade then I agree, he's indeed a tool... but some of what he said in this thread is true.. FDX CA is not indicative of the wage/work rule situation at 95% of pilot jobs today.. FDX should be at the top of the food chain, as the company is making hand over fist, but there are far too many people flying cargo, pax and such at 1/2 to 1/3 FDX wages.. why? I don't have the full answer.. but we need to come together and find a way to change it.

Instead of attacking the messenger, what about the message?

I see the point of the this thread as comparing wages in relatively unskilled labor vs. pilot labor. Consider the skill required to produce revenue as a pilot for an airline, then contrast the revenue that's actually produced.

Are pilots underpaid relative to the revenue they produce? IMO, yes!

Until pilots can agree on that point without attacking each other AND negotiate to improve compensation, maybe Skyhigh is right: Pilots tend to be their own worst enemy.

Its true fellas, we bash mesa, gojets etc...............Managment is laughing all the way to the bank, pre 9/11 wages were beautiful, I mean wonderful, that was 5.5 years ago and airlines are flying more pax now than pre 9/11 how the hell can we not be back to pre 9/11 wages..................5 years later. Everybody wishes they were at FEDEX, UPS, SWA, take a look at pre 9/11 payscales, everybody was right there!!!!!!!!!!! These airlines mentioned above just didntcut pay................. Rather than bash each other we need to make sure that future contract negotiations allow us to raise the pay, I hate to say it cause it sounds cheesy, but Johnny Prater is right, Fu*kin take it back already its about time. The attitude that SLAPPY the SKW pilot has, "I dont mind taking lower pay if it means more flying for my airline" is what is killing this industry, enough is enough.

The world is full of pilots who just "want to fly" - EAA, SSA, AOPA, etc. Hopefully professional pilots are motivated by a love for flying, pride in their level of accomplishment, a desire to be safe and (sin of sins) renumeration.

I've yet to meet a professional in any occupation who don't care what they are paid. Some may be willing to work for low wages - it may be the price of being in the profession. Suppy and demand has lots to do with it. RNs, in surplus and lowly paid twenty years ago, are now in one of the best paid professions.

i agree with you 100%...as i said we all know what the deal is...now each airline has to do their part to fix things..as UAL is doing as we and UPS have done(good contracts)...he is bitching about the rules and he is not even in the game....take care

I wouldnt go that far sfl, this isnt a Great Lakes recruiting session is it? ;)

Hmmm, I dunno about that.

Job Posting in Hampton Roads VA for Electrician w/ 8-10 years Experience - $14-$18/hr. Even working your butt off you're talking <$35k/yr.

Working blue collar labor is tough, I've flown with several ex-truckdrivers and construction workers. Every single one of them was happy they made the switch.

Wrong. I drove for 10 years(FT for 6); didn't pay a dime for health. I was entitled to 401k as a PTer. BTW my last year I made 78 large, including grievances :). But it's a miserable, bust ass job.

My best friend in college actually quit a regional airline to become a UPS driver. Made a lot more money in the short run. Now he can't drive anymore because of back injuries.

I think Skyhigh frequently fails to mention the downsides of these other jobs.

Construction for example: If there's one business that makes the airlines look stable, it's the construction business. Who cares how much you make if you're out of work at every housing downturn? My construction friends are struggling for work right now.

Maybe contracting would be cool??? Oh yeah, one of my best buds is a 777 FO AND a contractor.

Please define a low rung job? I am a police officer and I think I earn every dime with what I deal with daily. In fact I think I deserve more

i agree that police officers deserve more, teachers deserve more, and pilots even deserve more. One problem that pilots will have is public support for high wages, as the majority of the public things we all make six figures anyway, and they also say that airplanes are easy to fly now....we've got "computers and such, and what do we actually do? take off, and land?" pretty common thought from the people in the back, akwardly enough, they're often right.

But we all know that there are days when we earn every dime and then some for the job we do.

Thanks... at least someone got my point!

Police in the SF Bay Area make anywhere from (after probation) $65,000 to $110,000/yr for regular uniformed police.. The same "Regional" Jet pilot living in the bay area makes the same $60-75K/yr working more hours, longer days, and having invested a good bit more into his training. No offense to any Policemen out there, as I know a few.. it's a job that has it's ups and downs, like many dealing with the public, but in the end, you're home most every day, and you're off 2 days a week or more (if you work long shifts).

There are a few ex-pilot cops out there.. I know one well.

You know what? All you guys/gals that think it's so much better being a fireman, policeman, nurse, blah blah blah - please go do it.

If flying is so bad and awful, why don't you just get out? Go be a fireman, policeman, nurse, blah blah blah. You can be home every night, make all the huge cash you claim these jobs make and be a much happier person.

Manual Labor
 

Someone here asked if I have ever worked a manual labor job before and yes I have. Outside of aviation construction is the only other profession I have. It was a hot day on the job site that inspired me to go to college and better myself. The problem was that after the effort I wasn't better. In fact I was making less than if I had stayed as a construction laborer.

Most of you seem to gloss past details like that however they always bothered me. Why is it that the Seattle Times runs a huge front page article about how the Seattle Police are hiring high school kids and paying them 3300 a month as a trainee while regional airline pilots spend over 100K in training and education and perhaps 8 years in school and initial experience building to reach the same point?

The reason is that people will fall on their sword in order to be able to say at parties and high school reunions that they have an interesting sounding job while in fact they live in poverty. In the past jobs that required education, were complicated or needed a high level of expensive vocational training earned the higher wages. Today it is the jobs that are difficult or not so glamorous that are becoming the big bread winners. I believe it is because our country has an overly efficient university system and now we can get student loans for just about anything.

Currently I build houses and rent them out. Most days I sit at home and make phone calls or do some paperwork; not much really. On occasion I have to crawl in the mud and dig under a foundation or get covered in paint from head to toe. I don't do manual labor that often but it does commonly occur. My job is not glamorous or overly difficult but it has taken my family and I from being reduced to a two bedroom apartment, after I was laid off at my last flying job, to living like a old style major airline captain. I have been able to earn more in one year than during my entire 16 years as a professional pilot combined.

We all sacrifice a lot for the interesting "sounding" job and to fly. As you all know I miss flying every day. It hurts to have to watch as my career passes me by, but all I have to do is to remember how badly it hurt to be among the working poor. I recall the 3:30 AM get ups and the all night red-eyes. I remember how miserable it was to be a junior pilot at an LCC or regional and it all comes back to me.

Today I get up when I feel like it and spend my days doing whatever I want, with a few exceptions. Not a bad trade. All I had to do was to give up a dream that I wasn't meant for anyway. Life is good as an airline pilot if you get hired at one of the better majors while still young enough to get someplace. Outside of that it is daily torture.


SkyHigh

We’re talking about wages in areas like Seattle, SF and LA. Yes you have to get paid higher wages than the national average because it cost so much to live there. My brother is a Police Officer in Bowling Green, KY and after 5 years on the force he is finally around 45K a year. If you're an airline pilot you can live almost anywhere if you’re willing to commute. So you live in Louisville or Cinncy where is costs 25% of what it does in SoCal or NorCal to live, your money now goes a lot further. I live in PHX and it cost about half of what it does in SoCal. I spent 10 years in KY where it cost 1/2 of what it does here.

And my wages don't change based up where I live.

Another lucrative alternative to being a pilot: farming!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaZuB...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-v1z...elated&search=

It's this attitude that your employeers embrace when it comes to setting your salary. That is why there is soooooo much complaining about low wages. Until you are willing NOT to work for low pay at a regional, major, et el, the salaries will remain depressed. If no one applied to the airlines starting today, because of low wages, I would bet that within 3-6 months wages would increase 25%-40%.

Do people really spend this much...I think this is the extreme case. I spent nowhere near this much time or money. Everything in here is YOUR life and YOUR case. Just because this is what happened to YOU does not mean it is what will happen to everyone else. Many others will move on to meaningful careers which they are happy with and enjoy. Others will be unhappy and try different things. Everyones life and case is different. There are many different circumstances for everyone. Some have sick parents or grandparents or children. Some live in expensive parts of the country, others have inherited debt. My point is that everyones life is NOT LIKE YOURS, so good for you that you found something that makes YOU happy. Flying makes me happy. I have no children, and I live in the Midwest so cost of living is not even close to Seattle, therefore I do not consider my choice to fly to be selfish. My current income is right on par if not higher than most jobs in my area. It certainly beats police officers, UPS Drivers, and Garbage Men. Flying makes me happy, and YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THAT!:D

Agree but thats "delusions of grandeur" that no one would apply. It's going to take an actual pilot shortage, like there is in the RN field today, before wages incease. They can't go much below the 200/1 experience level before the shortage hits - and it will.

Commuting costs money
 

Pilots love to use the "commuting" card and overlook the true cost of commuting.

Depending on your commute a pilot can loose one to several days a month to commuting. Time that could be better spent with family or earning more at something else. Commuters commonly have added expenses of crash pads, airport cars, hotels, cab rides and the normal added expenses of being on the road. Often these added expenses can add up to a lot, if one were to take the time to look.

We fool ourselves into thinking that we can cheat the high costs of living in urban areas by fleeing to depressed regions to make our crummy pay checks make sense. Few take into account lost days and the other associated expenses. These false assumptions are another tool that management uses to cut the pay even more.

Overlooked Truths about aviation:

Per Diem isn't pay

A pilot earns only what his stated base pay is. Selling your days off and vacation time is sacrificing the days of your life for a miserable return. It does not count as being paid to be a pilot for the company and should not be counted as such.

Commuting costs a lot. It is another way we can sell even more of out time off.

Lets not forget that often the "cop" does not have 100K in student loans and looks forwads to a good retirement. And, they also have the ability to work overtime that pilots love to overlook.

Skyhigh

How do you do this? Do you buy the land, and hire the contractor to build the home, and build with a construction loan/HML? Why not just buy homes and rent them out? Can it be done cheaper with you building it? Are these SFH or duplex/apartment "homes"?

I've been going to Habitat to learn the ins/outs of construction as it's something I want to get into on the side. I like flying but the inherent value of creating something out of nothing like you can in construction really can't be beat if you know what you are doing. That's my problem though - I have no idea what I'm doing :D!!

Sacrifices
 

Go and be happy. If your dream in life is to be a loner recluse then you have found the perfect occupation. One day if you are lucky you might get married and have children and if that day comes the sacrifices you are currently making will become painfully obvious.


You are right. I do make assumptions based upon my own life. I assume that others have similar desires as to myself. I assume that most wish to have a full and balanced life, that they are concerned about their own financial well being, that they value time at home and to have the ability to pursue outside interests. My guess would be that others desire to have their efforts be fairly compensated and to enjoy at least a middle class lifestyle after so much effort, education, training and expense. Anyone with a rational bearing on the future should have some kind of retirement concerns as well.

I am consistently proven wrong about my assumptions. Some seem to have their heads in the sand, they don't seem to take an honest measure of their returns. Their actions are in compatible with what most rational people would do or ecpect. They live in a well fortified world of denial and those people are called airline pilots. How else can they be comfortable with the current situation?


SkyHigh

Pm
 

Send me a PM and I will fill you in.

SKyHigh