Principles: LCC vs Legacy
 

In the age of social media and with the recent customer service debacles lately, do you think companies like Jetblue and Southwest, which offer a consistent high value product, are in a better position to succeed than legacies that use lower quality aircraft and poorly paid subcontractors?

Do you think it's better in principle, as a pilot, to go for the money and work for a company that pays slightly higher airbus rates, but then pays regional contractors 50% of the appropriate wage to operate half of their flights? Or.. is it better to work for a company that pays less than the legacy but does not contract out any of their flying?

Yes, I like money just like everybody else. I'm just curious if anyone actually thinks about the whole picture before they decide that the big money legacies are the best thing out there right now for the profession.

Roll the dice, I hope it works out for you.

Every airline has and will have customer service issues like we've seen lately. No point in trying to over analyze it. IMHO, it's more important how the airline handles their issues. That's more valuable and a big window through which to view their future success.

Some want QOL. Some want money. You decide for yourself is my suggestion. Retirement and wages at majors and LCC's are on the rise to compete with legacies. It wouldn't be a bad option. You obviously won't make as much and won't have all those benefits but it's still competitive in my eyes.

The answer to your question is no.

You have a rather large comprehension gap regarding the businsses models of various types of airlines.

The legacies do hub and spoke, which is the only effective way to link small towns into their network, especially overseas.

LCC's typically have a different model:

SWA focuses on city-to-city, but only serves cities which are large enough to support several NB flights each day.

Jetblue (and Virgin) tend to do high-yield coast-to-coast flights, or link other lucrative markets.

Allegiant connects small/medium towns to vacation destinations.

Etc, etc.

The subcontractor thing for the regionals which feed legacies has a purpose. The FO pay at majors has to be more than junior military pilots make, or they would only come to the majors after they retire and get their pension. But if regionals paid mainline wages the entire regional feed system would operate at a loss, and would exist only to the extent that it brings feed to the hubs. Many, many small towns would lose air service. Does the system get abused? Yes. Lowest bidder is a bad idea, you get bottom feeders which skirt some of the fundamentals of safety, and you end up hiring anybody who meets FAA mins when pilot demand is high.

The legacies are not going anywhere, and the only thing which will kill the regionals is lack of cheap new-hires. If the pax really want good customer service they are probably going to have to stopping "sorting by price" when they buy tickets on orbitz. If they "sorted by quality", the market would respond.

I admittedly prefer the corporate culture of some airlines to others. But that's a personal call. Somebody asked one the UAL pilots in mil unit if he was embarrassed to be seen driving to work in uniform lately...he said "nah my maserati has tinted windows"

At the end of the day, when your retirement day rolls along, you'll be able to more precisely answer your question. My take on it, until then, try to get on somewhere that will jive better with who you are and what you believe in. Boat loads of money is great, but what's it really worth if you hate your job and who you do it for?

Well... A big thank you to everyone else who actually understood the point of the question, and answered it without trying to insult my intelligence. I'm pleasantly surprised by the maturity of most of the answers here.

This was mostly meant to provoke some thought about future airline success and the thought process behind choosing a job, not to directly compare the legacies against the smaller major carriers' operations and their markets...

The point being the legacies are not going to fail or decline because they don't offer the best customer service. Their business model is different from their LCC competitors. I didn't say you were stupid, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. I said you were comparing apples to oranges. Kind of like comparing greyhound to uberblack....uber's a nicer ride but not a practical solution for most folks from Miami to Minot, ND.

You may be oversimplifying your principles. Southwest contracts out heavy mx to the islands were fewer workers have A&Ps or speak English, they're just "supervised" by an A&P and work for less.
We have all heard about NAI, but plenty of trades are contractors now instead of company men. Every power plant, oil refinery, or chemical plant has far more contractors than company folks working in them.
The story is always the same, either know someone, or work as a contractor until you get chosen to be a company man.

That's good info but you might be over-complicating this. Unless the outsourcing of some mx directly affects the pilots and their pay/jobs?

The problem is I never tried to make it apples to apples, because if it was, the question would be pointless. The business model, customer experience, and principles are all different. I was curious to see if any of these factors have any real weight in someone's decision, or if pay scale trumps all.

Having worked for both and seen both operations the differences are pretty shocking. In general the feel good, GO Team GO attitude that some LCC sell is a very thin facade over a mediocre airline. The lower pay at the LCC affects every aspect of the airline from baggage handlers to upper management. They aren't willing to pay for talent or competency and so you see many manager new hires at the LCC's be off the street hires with zero industry experience or even worse they promote from within. Pilots and flight attendants are generally good people but very little of our jobs is relevant to a career in route planning, operations, or middle management. They hire nice, friendly people but sometimes they hire quirky and "different" individuals who leave you scratching your head and feeling like you are in the land of misfit toys.

The difference in pay between a LCC and a legacy is in the millions of dollars over the course of the average career (check the UAL pay comparison from a few weeks ago), the flying is more diverse so you can find the aircraft and type of flying you like for your lifestyle, and you aren't the last line of defense in an operation that is barely holding together. The difference in professionalism from a LCC to a legacy is night and day at almost every level and is noticeable in almost every interaction. The LCC I was at tended to micromanage you to fit their idea of culture but when the rubber met the road you were just a number. I had to work there to really understand and appreciate the differences.

I wouldn't group Southwest with other LCC's. That is a different animal and a well run airline.

I thought you were talking principles.

Yes but ones that directly affect pilots, not mechanics.

All very good points. Thanks

Do the majors not outsource heavy mx anymore? It was all the rage 5-10 years ago.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-maintenance-disturbing-truth/amp

Pretty much Jetblue in a nutshell. If you have the time and your regional is not falling apart at the moment, ride it out until a legacy calls. Not worth jumping around.

Obviously you're unfamiliar with some of the customer service debacles that jetBlue suffers still during IROPS. Perhaps you also missed the reality tv show featuring southwest.

They are not immune. They just aren't in the news this quarter.

I never said they were immune, but I see your point.. Jetblue does have a knack for staying under the radar. However the southwest tv show was 90% just drunken entitled idiots being handled by gate agents, not exactly the same as dragging bloodied old men off of airplanes.

For me personally...

Internal company culture (as experienced by the pilots) is huge. I will not work in a toxic culture, period. Few majors fit that description these days.

External culture, how the customers and public perceive the company, would certainly be a tie breaker if all else were about equal.

But most of us are not going to have multiple job offers in hand at one time (unless you're a top-tier fighter pilot). It would be a bad idea for most pilots to selectively apply to certain majors unless geography is a factor (ie if you live in NY and aren't moving, probably shouldn't apply to Hawaiian).

I think Aquaticus nailed it though.

I've said this many times. You will most likely enjoy a more stable, more rewarding career at a ULCC or LCC such as Spirit or jetBlue.

JetBlue's growth last year was around 10% IIRC. AA was flat. In one of the best economic markets for airlines in DECADES.

I think Delta is a good bet. Their management is excellent and has a multi-decade long history of making sound conservative decisions.

Neither United nor AA have good management. They are riding the wave of low fuel prices.

Money won't make you happy beyond a certain point.

You're forgetting retirements...there aren't going to be a lot any time soon at any LCC.

Also LCC's are limited in that they can only serve city pairs which have enough traffic, and are mostly limited to domestic. A large part of the US population can only served effectively by hub-and-spoke...especially if they're going overseas.

Unless it's an opportunity to live in base, LCC's are mostly a plan B for younger pilots. If you're older then it's more of a wash.

Retirements will just be furloughs from the top.

The LCCs will continue to take market share from the legacies even in good times, and in bad the legacies will get slaughtered.

The data shows this. LCCs are growing significantly faster than the mature legacy market and are taking market share.

I think it's more likely they'll get merged (ala airtran, virgin, america west). At some point the FTC will throw the trustbuster flag and there will be a few odd-men-out who will continue to fill their niche.

But again the LCCs can't serve much of America in a cost-effective manner without a hub-and-spoke model.

If a LCC hires you first then I'd definitely consider it, as long as the commute isn't that bad. I made the jump to a LCC after six years at a regional. So far after almost one year I'm happy with my situation and decision. I have a wife that makes a good living for herself, so that move to a LCC was a little easier. If I was the sole breadwinner, my decision might have been different. Only you know what is best for you. I've seen it time and time again, people spend over a decade at a regional scratching and clawing to get that Legacy dream call, and either they get stuck at their regional or are still patiently waiting. Do what makes you and your family happy, this forum can't make that decision for you.

Or they get hired. Do your research and go for what you want,and don't stop til you get it.

This can't be said ENOUGH.

It was funny to read the UAL threads about Dr. (Dinky) Dao and how some drama queens thought their image was so vastly tarnished it could cause problems.

I'm a broken record here, but it doesn't matter if it's the legacy or their outsourced lift provider du jour, the world keeps spinning....

Just take a look at the Legacy contracts- Its a no-brainer. Legacy brotha.

Since deregulation, a gazillion LCC's have popped up and only a handful survived.

In that time only two legacies have failed (EAL, Pan Am).

There have been plenty of mergers all around.

Worth noting SWA existed well before deregulation.

After the US-AW merger, they finally were up to 50% of the pilots just on property at US prior to 9/11 five years prior.

Yes, while they exist in name, they are shells of their former selves. Where did those jobs go? SWA/jetBlue mostly. Spirit. Etc.

Would you rather be at the bottom of a stagnant/shrinking place where you live and die by seniority or at a company that is growing rapidly that has a multi-decade year history of growth above GDP?

Don't look at the top pay rates - it's likely you'll never see them.

I'd rather be at a company that's not growing or even shrinking a little that has a massive amount of retirements on the horizon than go to one that's growing but has a ton of young pilots senior to me.

Retirements have to happen. Growth can be stopped at anytime. I think JB just announced they're slowing their growth plans.

Doesn't matter if the the big three stagnate...everybody's retiring. And senior legacy FO's make as much as LCC CA's...but they get to keep their seniority while doing it.

But my buddies at several LCC's are not painting a rosy picture for upgrades right now.

No.

Go for the money.

I can't say I know anyone who's left a legacy for a LCC in the last 8 years. Plenty in the other direction. There's a reason for that -- pilots are generally smart. If it's corporate responsibility you want, make sure you put your 401k in a "responsible" fund and sleep well at night. Choosing one employer over another will do exactly jack squat to spread the wealth.

True, your first part goes without saying. Retirements at the legacies far outpace those of the LCC/ULCC carriers.

And it's slightly apples to oranges.

But did not DAL reduce it's widebody order? Sure, they'll STILL retire a crap ton, but still....

And UAL announced an huge order for 737's, only to reduce it to what, 4? Sure, they'll still retire a crap ton, but still....

So it does suck that JB announced slowing growth, but it's STILL GROWTH.

I get that. But my point is even with no growth your seniority will rise quicker at a legacy than most LCCs who are growing.

AA has shrunk since I got here 4 years ago. Yet I still have 2500 people junior to me.

It's not even a debate. Just looks at the numbers.

Right, I already agreed.

Was simply saying, it's STILL growth.

Oh yea. Didn't read it as that. My fault

Why are legacy new hire classes filled with LCC pilots?
How would you be at the bottom of a stagnant/shrinking list with 7,000 retiring in the next 10 years? Top pay rates? A 4 year FO at AA makes the same as a 10 year Spirit CA. Not following your arguments.

Absolutely true ^^^
No brainer. Bye LCC - hello Legacy.

It looks like a no brainer to go to a legacy TODAY.

In the late 90's hiring was going crazy. All the majors were hiring like gangbusters and everyone was going to be a Captain in three years. United made their largest ever annual profit ($1 bil). It was like manna from heaven.

Just a few short years later, those who went to jetBlue, SWA, FedEx, UPS, etc. looked like geniuses.

That's all I'm saying. Look at the structural issues that the legacies have. Large oversized senior employee groups. Corporate culture where they spend spend spend whenever they get the money (save for Delta). Operating costs that are TWICE on a per seat mile basis than the ULCCs. There is a lot of downside protection going to a LCC and in an industry where seniority is #1 I think it's at least worth a passing thought on where you will be able to finish out your career without interruption.