Excellent point!!!!

 

you are still incorrect. RVR is not the same as flight visibility. rvr is a ground based instrument. like the post below me said pilots determine the flight visibility. If once you descend to the mda, you have the runway environment insight you can land no matter what the reported visibility is. you really need to study your 121 regs. Sorry if this is old news to some of you guys, just trying to help fokker28 out.

Subpart U--Dispatching and Flight Release Rules
Sec. 121.651

c) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section, and after that receives a later weather report indicating below-minimum conditions, the pilot may continue the approach to DH or MDA. Upon reaching DH or at MDA, and at any time before the missed approach point, the pilot may continue the approach below DH or MDA if either the requirements of Sec. 91.175(l) of this chapter, or the following requirements are met:]
(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and where that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;
(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used;
(3) Except for Category II or Category III approaches where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by authorization of the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.
(ii) The threshold.
(iii) The threshold markings.
(iv) The threshold lights.
(v) The runway end identifier lights.
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.
(viii) The touchdown zone lights.
(ix) The runway or runway markings.
(x) The runway lights; and

Who determines flight visibility?? the crew of course. The guys in the tower cant determine flight visibility, the automated weather cant say what you as the pilot can see. Now is there a way to say how far you as the pilot can see?? of course not, but after shooting an approach, arriving at the minimums, and having the runway in sight, you are perfectly legal to land. I hope this helps you understand Fokker.

now as to whether they SHOULD have landed or not is a different story. I think the biggest mistake here is him saying he lost the runway. once the environment was lost he no longer satisfied the requirements of this section.

 

Not familiar with the mins in CLE. But, what are they for LOC ONLY for that runway? THAT'S the stickler. It seems like this thread is going the way of ILS interpretation. THIS WAS A LOC ONLY APPROACH!

 

Sec. 121.651 is for precision and non precision approaches. it doesn't matter if it was loc or ils.

 

I read and reread this report. I'm not sure by the wording if they got the runway in sight for the first time at 50' AGL, or if they were just stating that at 50' they had the runway and then at 30' or so, they lost it?

The thing that troubles me is that the F/O shouldn't have been flying the approach with that reported weather.

 

What makes you say that?

 

Well the captain would probably want to take the controls if he knows it's going to be a difficult situation. He will be responsible if anything happens so he does not want to take a chance on the FO screwing up; not that the captain could not screw up, but there is less of a chance of that happening with him.

 

Depends on the company and the equipment. One concept that some companies use when the weather conditions are poor is the 'monitored approach'...where the FO flys the approach coupled and the CA monitors the approach while looking for the runway. Monitored approaches are often associated with CAT II and III approaches.

Shuttle doesn't do CAT II approaches...nor do they use the monitored approach concept. Neither of those says anything about the manner in which this particular approach was flown. It remains to be seen what exactly happened, and we should all hold our thoughts until then.

 

I have done several approaches to minimums, and on snow covered runways. Happens alot when you fly out of dtw into all the areas of the northeast. I am not sure what happens at SA but at pinnacle you have to have a certain amount of time in the plane before you can land in certain circumstances, such as low vis, contaminated runway, high crosswind, etc... but once you have the expierence, and the captain has flown a couple legs with you, if they feel you can handle it then they should give you a shot. I wouldn't want the first time i landed on a snow covered runway to be my 1st flight out of upgrade oe. He had probably flown a couple legs with the guy and felt he was competent to do the job.

 

the report never stated when he first saw the runway. i expect that in another report. there would have already been a go round at 50 ft due to the MDA with GS out of service...

being a republic guy there is a lot more to this than you see