New Mesa mins
 

I guess because of airlineapps.com I was put on a mailing list. I received this email today. I underlined the wierd part.

.... at 500 hours I was scared $hitless to even fly IFR solo, let alone a jet with 50-98 people on board. Way to go Mesa, a prime example of our race to the bottom.

Report: This just in....Mesa will now hire anyone with a student pilot certificate and remains committed to high standards of training......

Mother Fokker

I hear ya. I didn't even consider putting out apps until I had 1200 hours. This 500 hours crap is insane.

i have 1800 and just started putting them out end of jan

I suggest that this get forwarded to USA Today, along with all the other "Reduced" minimums hiring . . .i.e. 850 SKYW, 800 Eagle, 600 XJT, etc . . .


Mesa Air Group would like to announce new Pilot minimums of 500 hours of total time and 100 hours of multi-engine time. Mesa remains committed to our current hiring standards and looks forward to hearing from pilots who meet, come close or exceed the new minimums.

Mesa Air Group is planning on hiring approximately 600 pilots in 2007 into all equipment, CRJ, ERJ-145, DHC-8 and Beech 1900 . Pilots interested in seeking an interview should complete in full and publish their application on-line at www.airlineapps.com. If you have any questions please email [email protected].

Sincerely,
Pilot Recruiting
Mesa Airlines

Just out of curiousity, how is Mesa's 500/100 different from Pinnacle's, Trans State, Express Jet (600/100), Comair, ASA. It doesnt make much sense to me that you want to send it to USA today... That's not news worthy at all..

News flash 1000/100 doesnt make you a pro... 500 of that 1000 or 1200 is sitting in the right seat BSing with you student pilot. You weren't flying... You were along from the ride. Dont bash low time pilots, some of them have better experience than guys with 1200/100...


You suck Ellen... You know I had pitty for everyone bashing on HMP a couple months ago, but now you... All the low time pilots are gonna be bashing you soon... You suck... "I suggest that this get forwarded to USA Today, along with all the other "Reduced" minimums hiring . . .i.e. 850 SKYW, 800 Eagle, 600 XJT, etc . . ." What kind of crazy Sh!t is that

Now that's something news worthy:D

"Dont bash low time pilots, some of them have better experience than guys with 1200/100.."

It's not a perfect world. But hours/experience/ratings/background is how things are judged. UPS has 1000 PIC turbine as a min. If you have 800 PIC turbine, are you just as good? You can make the case either way, but you don't meet the stated standard, so it's a moot point.

I'd take a 1000 hour pilot sitting next to me before I'd take a 300 hour pilot. Though you like to preach it, there is no substitute for experience. I'll tell ya right now, the world isn't gonna change for a 19 year old kid who thinks he knows it all. Just give it up.

Not everyone was just instructing for that 1000 or 1200 hours. Most of mine was 135 VFR charters along with a steady part 91 corp gig in a 210 flying single pilot IFR. Instructing counted for the least amount of my time. Not bashing instructing, I learned a lot from it. I feel lucky I was doing more than instructing.

Name calling . . . how pathetic. Oh yes, let's add the other airlines too . . . Mine was just a partial list, I am glad to see that you have started to fill in the blanks. And just another note . . 1000/100 doesn't make you a pro either.

Let's look at this another way . . . . How experienced do you think a 15 1/2 year old driver is with his temporary permit? How about a 17 year old driver? A 17 year old has about 500 hours of driving experience.

Would you trust a 17 year old driver behind an 18 wheeler driving cross country through all kinds of weather, road construction, traffic jams,etc. and sharing the road with you?

The country (American Public) would have a cow if they knew an inexperienced 17 year old was driving a 20 ton rig down the interstate. Yet they have no idea that is what is happening at the airlines.

Please feel free to post with your new opinions after you have several thousand hours of flying. I can guarantee that your opinion will differ much more than it does now.

I couldn't agree more. If 300 hour or even 600 hour pilots are so experienced, than why doesn't Southwest, FedEx , JetBlue, AirTran, Alaska, Continental, Delta, et el hire them? It's because they don't have decision making skills, and lack of decision making skills leads to incidents and accidents.

Well boss I didnt call you any name. You made it, so now you can think stupid stuff :p like using the media to drag down low time guys. How stupid!. You logic doesnt make any sense. I'm sure that an extra 2000 hours in my logbook wont make me think to spread the news to USA today. Young pilots already have it bad with the passengers saying stupid sh!t like "are you old enough to fly this little plane" now you want to add to it.. How selfish of you.

You seem to be scared about the USA Today thing . . . Do you think it might ruin your chances to fly a jet with low time? Nonetheless, you'll understand the big picture soon enough. (I hope.)

If the media starts an isssue, it won't change a thing...
if anything, it'll rather be negative on the industry as a WHOLE

300/600hr pilots DONT know it all, and they'll admit it also....
we just want to accelerate our lives other than going into armed forces...
flying right set on a 50 passenger jet isn't the worst thing an airliner can do.....the FO isn't making the decisions, the CA is...and who's that? A 2000+hr pilot....some1 with a lot more experience....what's the low timer really doing...maybe do the radios? Put the gear or flaps in? How much damage can he do?


And for ELLEN'S sake,....if the captain becomes unconscious...an accident waiting to happen...the FO WILL land the plane, and the pax WILL walk away thanking the young good looking stud GREATLY!:D

I'm not trying to bash XJT, but I hope you realize your airline is one of the biggest employers of 500 hour ATP/ERAU grads out there...:rolleyes: and has one of the easiest and least stringent interview process in the industry (the interview at XJT was actually shorter/less rigorous than a job interview I attended for a serving job with Fleming's Prime Steakhouse...and no, I am not kidding).

I personally think they could do a much better job at screening applicants, but for some reason they choose not to.

NO, the day there aren't anymore pilots avialable is the day Fedex will lower their mins to 300. Supply and demand, has nothing to do with experience. How do you explain the fact that regionals used to hire at 2500 with 500 multi and now have dropped to a couple of hundred? Or what about parts of the world that hire 500 hour 737/A320 pilots?

I thought that the mins at Mesa were always lower than 500...I got an interview there over a year ago with 400 and I know someone else who had around 300 when he got the interview (and took the job), so how is this anything new?

What decision making skills in a 172 would help me fly a 50,60,70 seat passenger jet? (Just a Question!):rolleyes:

A lot of things lead to accidents...Southwest, FedEx, AirTran, Alaska, Delta have all had accidents / incidents. Unfortunate but true.

-LAFF

I don't think it's fair to state that all young pilots lack decision making skills likewise not all older pilots have good decision making skills.

Wellllll, the airplane involved is irrelevant. Are you saying that poor decision-making skills learned in a C172 won't hurt you later on down the road in a shiny jet? Geesh. There is value in experience, ANY kind of experience.

To young to know...
 

You guys are all to young to know or remember when UNITED (yea that legacy one) put adds in the newspaper looking for people interested in becoming a pilot...

There are several Foreign carriers that have ab initio programs...as does Mesa.

The thing I have a hard time believing is that if ANY major airline called you TODAY with whatever time you had...you would say NO, in the interest of safety...I think I should build more time flying checks at night, flight instructing, or flying at a crappy regional...give me a break.

Oh, yea...flight instructing for $7.50 an hour for a few more years...right. If you know your history...in the early 90's you needed 4000-6000 to get on with most regionals (and that was to fly a turbo-prop). Glad to see that you have all agreed that 1000 hours is now the new safety margin for flying!

same thing I was thinking BigWatch... why is 1000/100 the safety margin..

I'm not scared about anything.. I think it would be selfish of you to do something like that. It wont help anything. As for me flying a jet with low time, I passed that up by choice... My day will come, and I could be sitting right next to you and you wouldn't even know it. :D

Questions for you to seriously answer:

1. Have you ever jumpseated on an RJ, did you ask the FO to see his log book to decide if it was safe for you go get to work?
2. If you are a captain and wherever you flying, do you ask the FO before each flight to see his log book.
3. Didnt someone give you a chance when you had "low time"
4. Do you allow you friends and family to fly on RJ and props are do you just have them take the train for safety..

Having been a 250/15 hour pilot, a 1000/100 hour pilot, and a 1500/350 hour pilot I can state with confidence that there are a LOT of things to be learned in GA between 250 and 1000 hours. After that the learning curve tapers off a bit. The amount of flight experience it takes to "get it" depends on the individual...

Sound professional judgement is where maturity, high-stakes decision making experience, and knowledge come together. Some of the knowledge can be learned academically, but a lot of it you have to see for yourself.

A 21 year old with an agressive attitude and 250 hours has three strikes already. He has no maturity, no decision making experience, and little knowledge (he didn't pay attention in class)

A 30 year-old cubicle worker doing a career change has some maturity, and some decision making skills, but is not accumstomed to making decisions in life-and-death circumstances. He paid attention to the books and classroom stuff.

A 40 year retired soldier, cop, or construction contractor has maturity and relevant decision-making skills...all he really needs is a little knowledge, which he already knows how to acquire.


Which of these folks needs 600, 1500, or 3500 hours?

ok so who doesnt belong in the cockpit of a RJ:
Low timers or Young adults?

Would you fly with some that had 1500/200 but is 20,
or with someone who has 700/50 and it's 29.....

Because this thread is going back and forth with low timers and 19y old kids.

and tell me this....If EVERY single one of you got an email, asking to fly for a company,(not taking pay/status into consideration), tell me if I'm wrong by saying that every one of you, w/o a doubt, would take the job?

Military...
 

Amazing logic there...how in the world does the Military every get those 21 year olds through flight training and flying F-teeners with a few hundred hours?? Aircraft commander, complex jet, combat ready...you might want to let them know they will have better results getting 30 year olds with 1500 hrs!

BWP...OUT

Age doesn't matter. Time however does. While yes there are some that might hvae 500hrs and it all be great flying and nothing redundant the vast majority does not posess the skill level required. It isn't until you get more hours that you look back and realize how much you've progressed. I have 1800hrs and can look back at when I had 500hrs and can easily see the progression I've made. Hindsight is 20/20 but not foresight. Only when I'm at 3000hrs will I be able to look back at now with 1800hrs and see the progression I've made.

After having noted the progression made since 500hrs I can say with confidence they don't belong in a cockpit of a RJ. The best anyone of considerable low time can do is just sit back and realize there is still a ton to learn ahead. I consider anything below 2000hrs low time. So yes I'm putting myself in that pool.

Ok, I'll admit that while at 500hours you might know alot directly from the books, but actuall skill and in flight decision making skills might not be so great...rather on the poor side....
but....you keep forgetting that there is a high captain next to you while has the FINAL AUTHORITY PERTAINING THE FLIGHT.
I think your confused that a 500hr should not be a captain....but a 500hr FO isn't that bad....
besides....if a 500hr kid get's hired by the airlines....It might be a good thing....train them while they're young...older guys might not wanna learn anymore...
maybe that's the Navy's logic....

I agree with what you're saying and no I didn't confuse anyone with saying at 500hrs put him as a captain.

However, there are times when an FO has to stepup and go to bat. What if the captain is making a bad decision? Will a young 500hr FO who doesn't really know any better stand up to him? Being young, with low time, and second guessing a captain could put you right on the crap list.

What happens if the capt all the suddent slouches over the controls because of a heart attack like the one that happened a few weeks ago? Things like this might be rare but that is exactly why an FO is needed.

The cockpit of a commuter with pax onboard isn't the place to teach. It's a place to operate. The captain already has plenty on his hands and needs the help of another. Not have to spend was little time he has to teach. Now if the aircrafts empty and he wants to brush up on a few things then have at it. But with pax in there they are both there to work.

And the captain will get help from the FO
And what kind of help would that be?
Do the radios? Talk to FA's, set up approaches?
Do you think the captain is going to let to FO fly? Maybe a bit, but I'm pretty sure he's gna be flying most of the time....

And if the CA get's a heart attack again....thank god for low time pilots who've had the training to fly the a/c...or would you rather not have ANY FO on board because they were all low time in your book?

my recently retired NWA CA neighbor said "a pilot with 500 hrs knows just enough to be dangerous".

I'm sure there are many stories here, like the one I heard from a Mesa jumpseater about an off the street Captain with 100 hours in the CRJ, barely an ATP, and their 300 hour TOTAL FO trying to stick a landing that was fast and long, and then trying to get off at the "usual" taxiway far too fast.

Frankly I'm disgusted by Mesa and their disregard for their passenger's safety.

I am now a Captain, recently upgraded. The first part of my career was during the post 9/11 downturn and as a result I worked the kind of jobs that are no longer necessary for aspiring regional pilots. I can tell you that I learned a lot in my Cessna 172. I flew aerial mapping and traveled the country. Every day I went out I learned something, if it wasn't something new it was a better way of doing things. After about 2000 hours I was finally able to get a job hauling checks. I learned more in 9 months in my Cennsa 210than I had learned in all the years previously. Mostly what I learned was not to be cocky and always respect the weather. Being scared real good by a level 5 thunderstorm tends to humble a man. Then I moved to my current company and the learning continued. I flew with experienced Captains who helped hone my skills and taught me the tools of the trade. Every step of the way I have learned that there is a lot left to learn. Do not discount the time in a Cessna 172. Every step builds on the last, and I am better now for the years I spent single pilot in a 172 buzzing around the country.

Dude...obvious you have not been an instructor at an airline or a LCA. How in the world would IOE get done with no pax on board??? And don't tell me that the F/O is ready to go after a few weeks in a simulator.

As you debate hiring minimums, consider this...
 

A situation to ponder while considering this high/low flight time debate:

Captain: 3500-4000 hours, 1500+ in type; 1st month holding a line after 6+ on reserve
FO (me): 2500, 300 in type; 1st month holding line after 6 on reserve, former corporate part 91, flight instructor, and 4 month stint another 121 carrier

Trip details:
Captain: 4th leg (and final) of day 3 out of a 6 day trip (actually a 2 and a 4 day back to back)
FO: 1st leg of day 1 of a 4 day trip

Weather:
Night, Approx 2130
From 30 mins out to 10 mins out visibility dropped from 1 SM to 1/4 SM
Constant report of Vertical Vis 400', wind 270@12, Snow, Fog, Braking Action Good
IMC with Continuous St. Elmo's fire from 6000' down to about 2000', IMC continues to Minimums

Event:
Captain is PF
FO is PNF
Vectors to ILS Rwy 18
Runway hasn't been plowed since storm started 1.5 hrs prior
RVR reported at 1800, 2000, 1600, 2200, 2600, 2200, then 3000 all within about 4 minutes
FO calls "approach lights in sight" at 350 AGL
CA calls "continuing"
FO calls "runway in sight" at 200 AGL
CA calls "landing" and disengages the autopilot
Aircraft immediately starts going below glideslope
FO calls "glideslope"
CA calls "correcting"
Automated voice: SINK RATE, SINK RATE
CA calls "correcting"
FO notices pitch attitude is still unusually low
Automated voice: (very rapidly) 50,40,30,20,10
FO simultaneously states "get the nose up" and pulls the yoke aft to attain a normal pitch attitude
Aircraft touches down in a normal attitude without incident

Factors:
CA Fatigue
Weather
Difficulty visually adjusting from instruments to visual flight (Captain hadn't experienced this difficulty before, FO had)
Destabilization of approach after disengaging autopilot
First time Captain had shot an approach in conditions this extreme (conditions can get even worse!)


Things to do differently:
Leave autopilot engaged as long as possible to allow for adequate transition to visual flight
Hold and request runway to be plowed
Go missed when approach became unstable
I should have offered to fly the leg since I was just starting the trip and the Captain was at the end of a long day

I have my opinions regarding this low time debate. I prefer not to get into it. I just felt the best thing I could do would be to post an experience of mine and leave it up to others to consider the following:

Would a low time (you define low time) pilot have intervened as I did?
Would a pilot fresh off their first Part 121 Initial Operating Experience (regardless of prior experience) have intervened as I did?
Is it really the best idea to think "THE CAPTAIN IS THE FINAL AUTHORITY" and will take over if things go bad? The FIRST OFFICER had to take over in this case.

I feel there are elements of my prior flight experience that caused me to instinctively intervene as I did. Extensive flight instruction in IMC and single pilot IFR (personal time building and corporate) are at the top of my list.

Flight instructing (and self preservation) developed the instinct to take over as I did. I minimized the use of simulators and "view limiting" devices when I earned my IFR ticket and hunted for IMC as I built time. I also minimized the use of simulators and "view limiting devices" when I trained students. Doing so allowed me to experience the transition from IMC to VMC numerous times as both PF and PNF. I emphasized this critical phase of flight to students.

I know there are many of you out there with similar/other valuable backgrounds. I encourage you all to share challenging experiences, such as mine, and what helped you to handle the situation. Hopefully, we can encourage others to follow in our foot steps (traditional career building instead of pay for training) without talking down to them. Provide the facts, encourage unbiased thinking by providing unbiased key points to consider, and allow others to decide.

We aren't going to change this industry by bashing one another. We need to promote safe (not "adequate") standards and educate those considering a career in aviation. Promote quality, not quantity.

Are y'all still jammering about the mins to get hired? Jeez... lets end this now... if you have less than ATP mins you shouldn't be flying an RJ... if you have less than 1000 hrs you shouldn't be flying a Turboprop.... if you have your comm/inst/me ticket you should be sitting right seat in a night cargo plane gleaning as much info and experience from the dude sitting in the left............ by the way could I get hired at Mesa with my comm/inst/me ticket?! Hahaahahahahaahaha Mesa can go to he11!

There's always exceptions, but more experienced pilots have at least proven themselves.

How many hours do Navy pilots have when they take their first carrier landing? It cant be much more than 200hrs. Wouldnt this dictate that the training is what makes you eligible to handle a jet a/c at lower flight time?