FCC is p!ssed- (Another 121.5 Thread)
 

All those air traffic controllers will be fined big time for trying to locate airplanes who are not on the right frequency. According to the document, the frequency may only be used for emergencies.

Yes, because losing contact with an airplane isn't a potential emergency :rolls eyes:

There goes all of Delta's profits if this is actually enforced.

I wish pilots would stop transmitting on guard. Just one pilot advising you are transmitting on guard is enough. There is no need for everyone to chime in.

Good news, IMO.
I fly a limited amount each month in the US or sometimes not at all. When I do, the clown show on guard at times is unbelievable. We should be embarrassed as U.S. professional pilots. I rarely hear anything similar internationally. A little self-enforcement on the flight deck would go a long way. Making a transmission in error is going to happen now and then. Most times it's self-critiquing and no one needs the barrage of idiots notifying us all of the error.

I fly mostly in the western US. The clown show is far more predominate in the east for some reason. It's getting annoying to fly east of the Mississippi now.

Gawd, I wish they would find a way to identify and deal with those idiots who think that 121.5 is their own personal comedy channel. As the prior poster opined, the clown show is embarrassing.

Reason being there are about 4 times more aircraft aloft in the east at any given time. Ever fly in and out of the NYC/Philadelphia/DCA airports? Not trying to justify the clown show but with more flights come more pilots and the likelihood is that much greater of a clown flying an airplane. BTW are we sure these are all "professional" pilots doing this?

Between jet blue looking for a frequency and delta calling jfk ramp, the fcc/faa will be funded for the next decade on fines alone. Oh and someone needing a limo and catering at tetorboro.

Good.

I hope they catch a whole bunch of the people clowning around on guard....

And especially the "Yer on Guuuuuuaaaarrrrrd" morons who don't realize they are sometimes stepping on actual emergencies.

They can-and they will.

I hope they make any prosecutions very public. Anyone who is doing fart noises or beavis and butthead on an emergency frequency deserves career-ending embarrassment.

This won't stop until pilots start reporting other pilots.


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I'm guessing that advancements with ADS, along with triangulation from receivers will eventually fix this.
I bet it doesn't take much for the ADS system to tap into the COMMs of an aircraft to see when they are transmitting and what freq they are transmitting on.

Not even that is needed.

If no one said anything, 90%+ of the pilots that accidentally come up on Guard will figure it out on their own after their one transmission.

Saying absolutely nothing will result in even less Guard-comm.

I can say with confidence that this is mostly PSA and their army of 21 year old croakey wearing top gun never was pilot group. I have on five seperate occasions heard PSA pilots abuse guard and then low and behold the same voice answers a radio call on the radio 1 freq. It's no coincidence you just named all of their domicilies.

I have previously flew at a regional west coast prevalent prior to a legacy and in those years I have never once flown with someone who pulls the guard crap. There would be a serious discussion and pro stands to follow.

No, SOCAL & NORCAL and LA center are pretty busy but you don't hear the 121.5 crap.

Why even monitor guard?

In case you miss a handoff...

Recent FAA policy is that if ATC has to phone your company to get hold of you via ACARS, they may refer it for enforcement. It's happened to some of our people (do an ASAP if it happens).

Never understood this either.

I'll do it upon request from ATC, but otherwise VHF 1 is for ATC, VHF 2 is for unicom/Company/ARINC/ATIS/ramp, VHF 3 (if equipped) is for ACARS.

The old military UHF radio had a "tone" button, with which you could chastise a radio goof, but avoid the risk of making one yourself. :D

Because if it's not required by the FARs or AIM (honestly can't remember if it is), most airlines require their crews to do so while not using the #2 radio.


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I don't think 90 percent is even close to accurate. I've heard it many times when the guard police are not around. People just keep repeating their request and become increasingly annoyed by the lack of a response. I work at Delta, I know this to be true:)

A single "your on guard" is fine and helpful.

At Delta it is a requirement to have guard in number 2, if your not using it for ramp or company. This is emphasized almost to the point of being "anal", which is why we are the biggest inadvertent offender.

I just don't listen to it below 10,000.

That's funny. I've been at PSA for almost 3 years and I've only seen a single (ONE) pilot abuse guard. I commute and sit on the jumpseat often and I've seen mainline abuse it far more frequently.

CFIs do it all the time because it is hard to train talking over the CTAF or TOWER freq of the ap you just departed the airspace of. It is usually pretty quiet and the bonus is that you are already on the right freq in case you have an emergency.

Found the AIM reference.

6-2-4-d-1

Pilots are encouraged to monitor 121.5 MHz and/or 243.0 MHz while inflight to assist in identifying possible emergency ELT transmissions. On receiving a signal, report the following information to the nearest air traffic facility:

(a) Your position at the time the signal was first heard.

(b) Your position at the time the signal was last heard.

(c) Your position at maximum signal strength.

(d) Your flight altitudes and frequency on which the emergency signal was heard: 121.5 MHz or 243.0 MHz. If possible, positions should be given relative to a navigation aid. If the aircraft has homing equipment, provide the bearing to the emergency signal with each reported position.


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Company policy at some airlines is monitor guard during flight.

Never understood? You and Lemons are incorrect. If your aircraft is capable, it is required. VHF 2 is for guard unless you're using it for something else temporarily. Then you put it back on guard. Hard to believe there are professional pilots who are not doing this.

From the FDC Notam link below:

"ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN UNITED STATES NATIONAL AIRSPACE, IF CAPABLE, SHALL MAINTAIN A LISTENING WATCH ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF 243.0"


https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ...d%204-0811.pdf

Some airline have SELCAL in which they are required to monitor that frequency. My airline used to have SELCAL until they got cheat about 7 years ago.

Yes, but most airplanes today have three radios...
1. ATC
2. Guard
3. Data (SELCAL/ACARS)

If you only have two radios, then you'll need company or data on com 2.

FCC is p!ssed- (Another 121.5 Thread)
 

Some aircraft have three radios that are setup as atc, SELCAL, and data. Point being that not all operators are required to guard 121.5. Once they got rid of our SELCAL, I realized how much of this annoying, useless chatter was going on on guard.

After 30 plus years of flying, I have enough hearing left that monitoring congested ATC freq's and the "blocked" transmissions are enough to do....let alone constant vigilance on Guard and the jagoffs who reside there daily.


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Doesn't matter, it is not an emergency. For example, the lost comm procedure only has you squawk 7600. It used to be back in olden times you squawked 7700 for one minute (an emergency) then 7600 for 15 minutes, then back to 7700. By changing this 15 or 20 years ago, they are clearly signalling it is no longer to be considered an emergency.

The FAA doesn't make policy on what is allowed on 121.5, the FCC does under 87.173. Their policy plainly says "121.500 MHz be used solely for emergency and distress purposes. The FAA continually monitors 121.500 MHz and treats any distress call received as an emergency to be investigated immediately."

Therefore controllers will be in violation for trying to locate airplanes who are not responding to their assigned frequencies, its just not an emergency.

I think they should change the rules to allow controllers to locate aircraft on 121.5 but I don't really have a say.

That's ridiculous. The FCC will not prosecute the FAA for using guard to find lost airplanes...they might be in distress or even hijacked, and eventually will likely create a traffic conflict. So ATC is certainly within the intent of the rule.

The FAA disagrees with you. And they define what is an emergency. The FCC doesn't..

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/186823

I hope you are right :D

"IF CAPABLE" pretty much gives me the authority to not waste a valuable communication/information tool by monitoring guard. Fortunately I work for a company that "gets it" and does not require us to monitor guard if we feel like we can use our radios more effectively.

I have been able to obtain invaluable information about weather at my destination, airport closures, etc by monitoring company and other frequencies more times than I can count, a few times this has allowed me to start coordinating a diversion long before I would have been able to otherwise or has helped me find ways around weather from company guys out ahead as we try to navigate the nastier weather of the lower flight levels.

One specific example.... A few years ago I was on my first trip off of IOE at my old company, we're flying across the Rockies in the winter, monitoring ARINC and we hear another aircraft calling their dispatch after their second failed attempt to get in their destination. Their destination happened to be our alternate. We ended up calling our dispatch, got our alternate changed because of the worse than forecast weather there. We ended up flying to our destination, going missed, and then diverting to the new alternate. We landed at the new alternate with min fuel plus 10 minutes. Not a fun situation but we made it. However, had we been monitoring guard we may have been clueless to the weather events unfolding below us and could have ended up not getting a new alternate and finding ourselves in a very terrible situation.

Furthermore, never has monitoring 121.5 provided me with any benefit. Granted, I'm a lower time guy who hasn't missed a handoff (YET, I'm sure it will probably happen), but if ATC forgets to hand me off there are other methods for re-establishing contact such as having other aircraft retransmit a new freq to me, or I'm just going to look at my chart and pull up the center frequency for the sector I am currently in and give that sector a call. Not a great situation, but not the end of the world.

So if you want to call me incorrect and unprofessional for not continuously monitoring 121.5, so be it. I'm willing to take that hit in order to monitor the frequencies that are going to give me the information that can save my career and/or potentially my life.

It may not have helped you, but it undoubtedly saved these people's lives. https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2017/04/04/delta-589-crew-whidbey-navy-rescue-olympic.html

And wouldn't it be the job of the dispatcher to let you know that airplanes at your alternate aren't getting through and coordinating a different one with you?

Theoretically yes, it would be the dispatcher's job however they did not know at the time we contacted them. Would they have found out later? would it have been in time? who knows. That day was a mess for a ton of our flights and they had their hands full. They could have easily missed it completely.

I'm not denying the merits to monitoring guard, however with the circus show it has become on the eastern half of the country, I do not find myself very motivated to change what already works. The Delta story is definitely one good reason to do it though.