In Line
 

Last night I was standing in line to gain entry to the annual local contractors ball and ended up next to the biggest builder in town. I had heard that recently he had bought into a turbine twin that is co-owned by two other business owners.

He told me that he was planning to get his multi-engine rating and fly it himself until he found out how little the pilot was getting paid. He said "man, I don't even pay my lowest grunts that little" and went on to brag about how this guy spends the entire day waxing the plane and burning the day away in a cold and damp hangar awaiting the occasional mission.

My friend told me that he simply shoves the pilot into the right seat whenever he feels like taking the helm and scares himself and everyone else as he attempts to fly it at the pilots career peril. He couldn't believe that a college educated "professional" would stoop to a living that even a high school drop out wouldn't accept and then permit such bullying. I told him to have the pilot report to the job site and sweep until needed at the airport.

He then paused and asked if I would be interested in taking on the pilots days off. Not on your life, was my reply.

Livin the dream.

SkyHigh

Guy sounds like a tool.

No, SkyHigh's the tool.

So what is the dream skyhigh? Layin' some bricks for a house? Must admit some of the points you make about working in aviation are good, but 2000 posts about an industry you aren't apart of is a bit ridiculous.

gettin' old man.

This isn't a phpbbs is it... Ugh, where is the 'ignore user' option?

What I don’t understand is why more pilots are not up in arms more about the state of the industry! Makes me sick. So many are so happy to be making 50k a year. I had a friend quit skyw because he was going to loose his house if he didn’t. Sad. He went back to work running a salvage yard.

Yeah just ignore skyhigh, ignorance is BLISS!

Exactly
 

bla bla bla,

You got my point. I shared this story to point out how owners/management thinks. Everyone here should be outraged but most are not. The story and resonse to it are telling of the future. Flying is decending to that of a working hobby. Most get paid just enough to live on but not enough to make a life.

Some will figure this out and others will fall prey to the trap.

SkyHigh

Why ignore SkyHigh? He paints entertaining and slightly embellished pictures to make a point, but he is telling it like it is and as long as you take what he says as the product of someone who didn't quite get the red carpet treatment it generally applies. One of the guys at my skydive outfit painted the same picture of one such position he was smart enough to resign. He was treated with minimal respect, perpetually on-call, flew minimally, was forced to wax and sweep, paid squat and received no benefits. It was the exact same picture. This poor fellow currently uses his CFI to work as a forklift driver.

yeah, after reading your post, the guy doing that is a tool, and if he is your friend then you are a tool too. And business must not be that good if the BIGGEST CONTRACTOR is flying a weak as s turbo prop. I know several friends of mine (yes several) who fly for contractors and they all have citations, falcons, gulfstreams,, you guys are weak a ss.

Two points, Sparky:
1) There's absolutely nothing wrong with a turboprop. I think maybe you ought to go see a doctor for that SJS you seem to have.
2) Nobody ever said it was a turboprop. The plane was described as a "turbine twin."

I don't think I've ever read such a ridiculous post. Here is a fellow who can afford to operate a multiengine turboprop and yet you point out how bad he is doing.

Is your own car worth more than $5k?


I think SkyHigh has a good point in regards to a flying job. Pilots will spend $30k+ on getting certificated in order to land a job paying $12k-$20k (average) as a CFI. We will then move on to a regional or small freight company making $20k-$40k after 6-18 months of CFI'ing. After several years of that we will upgrade or transition to bigger aircraft making $60k-$85k. A few will get lucky and get on at UPS, FedEx, or legacy and break $100k (for the first time) a few years after that, and possibly have a career to look forward to provided the bottom doesn't drop out again. For most though, especially in this day and age of farming out flying, they will be stuck at that income level for life ($60k-$80k). Maybe a few corporate guys will be pushing $120k flying the big aircraft, but you are on call a lot of the time. Not a great way to live a life.

Instead SkyHigh has gone from poor regional pilot to almost-retired builder in a few years. I think his point (hopefully I am not putting words in his mouth) is that what if we, as pilots, took all that dedication and money and put it towards something else, like real estate. We could retire a few years out of college.

I like flying as much as the next person but let's be honest - retire before 30 or work 70% of our life like dogs and hopefully be able to enjoy the remainder of our life on our meager 401k savings? Hmm, I know which one I would pick.

Now one thing I will disagree with though is that someone would be better off working as an electrician, plumber, garbage man, police officer, or fire fighter. Those types of jobs might pay better but if your heart isn't in it you won't like it. I am happy making ~$40k as a second year regional FO vs. working out in the elements 5 days a week. But I also have bigger dreams. One of the benefits of a pilot is how much down time we have. You can either use it constructively or not.

Whatever...
 

I didn't get into aviation to be rich...I did it because I wanted to fly and not be a ditch digger...

It all worked out...and now I'm rich, I have to go pay the ditch digger now putting in my pool!

BWP...out

The way the industry is heading, you can be a highschool dropout at age 16-17, finish flighttraining age 18, instruct for 3 months get hired with a regional, age will hold back an early upgrade so wait for age requirement. Then make it a career in the regionals. Making 60-90K as a highschool dropout isnt bad....

Yes, because there is an overwhelming majority of fresh college grads who are retired. If it was really that easy, everybody would be doing it.

So would everyone else, but life isn't like that. College grads, in general, hope to retire by 55, and are considered lucky if they manage that. Most people aren't even around long enough at a single company to collect retirement benefits, and those that are have their companies trying to find reasons to fire them so they can't collect their pensions in the nest two years.

There is no easy way to the top, whether it be in Aviation or not.

Here are some interesting numbers:

The average income in the US,
Without a High School Diploma: $19,915
With a High School Diploma: $29,448
With a Bachelors degree: $54,689
With a Master’s, Professional, or Doctoral degree: $79,946

This is according to a US Census report released.......March 15, 2007.

Yeah your right, you will still be making 60-90k 10-15 years from now when a bus driver makes 150,000k and is home every night.

Amen.

In today's day and age, if you just have a job that you enjoy you're not too far from the top.

I know very few people that really like their job. Most say they do but are so obviously lying...hell, I do it.

Ehhh... 150k to drive a bus?? Dont know about that... its more like 20-40k.

One way to look at it when you are working as a cfi or building time is the same reason that a student loan borrowed during college is considered "productive debt", thats because you are investing in yourself. Another thing about being an airline pilot is it gives you the mobility and spare time to start other ventures. I know a number of airline pilots who have made fortures with their side businesses. How many jobs are there really that you could make much more than major airline pilot while actually working for someone else besides a doctor or lawyer? Not very many. Not to mention, you wouldn't make six figures flying a plane until you are in your thirties (if you started early) and a surgeon doesn't actually start practicing medicine until around the same time after he goes to medical school and does a residency. A neurosurgeon whom I taught how to fly once told me he would have traded positions with me. Read the book "The Millionaire Next Door", it will make you feel better about being a pilot from the financial standpoint.

Why would you want or need aside business? I'm going to be an airline pilot and I'm not going to work a second job or have a side career on my days off. I plan on using the downtime to concentrate on my family, my friends, and other interests - mentoring others. My life will revolve around family and flying the line for the next 20+ years.

Do you guys have a passion for aviation at all? Doesn't sould like it to me.

You take the good with the bad and make your life work out....Thats what proactive people do...Reactive people blame management, the price of oil, weak unions, etc...They blame everything / everyone except themselves for their problems.

I'm not perfect or even close but I know how to hold my head up high and am not worried / concerned that I'm going to be a poor, uneducated, under employed professional pilot. If its not working out its time to look at myself and change those things I have control over...

-LAFF

It sounds like they do, if they are willing to work on their days off to make flying work out for them. I would say that is a passion.

Good post LAFF.

Memory
 

If memory serves correct I thought that in order to be an ATP one needed to have a high school diploma as one of the FAA requirements. A drop out wouldn't do.

SkyHigh

My son is a high school drop out (still does NOT have a high school diploma) and has an ATP.

Not in the regs.

Memory
 

I guess my memory has failed me.

SkyHigh

Why not pick up extra trips on those days off? Mentor Boy Scouts on aviation, spend time working with Boys Clubs / Big Brother / Big Sister organizations and develop the next generation of pilots?

I'm passionate about the military. I don't work a second job to make the AF work out for me.

-LAFF

hahaha, sparky.. never said there was anything wrong with a turbo prop. 1. i love turbo props.. i wished i was flying a king air every time i hoped in the navajo i had to fly. SJS,, i think that only runs in your family, not mine.

2. doesn't matter.

my point is his buddy thinks he is the sh!t,, and his way of earning respect and power is by beating people down,, he will get his.
There is always a bigger dog in town.

I took the liberty of highlighting some of the stupidest things i have ever heard. Most pilots will not be "stuck in 60-80 range". that is just ignorant. I have 2 brothers, and a handfull of friends who have proved that other wise. and thats just people i know. I also know 3 guys who fly corporate, are not on call a lot of the time (scheduled out several weeks in advance), and bring in well over 180000. they happen to think it is a great way to live life. (especially when the boss goes to the bahamas and he gets to take his family too.) by the way, starting f.o. there is 80000.

And either you are skyhighs alter ego (different name) or you are making some big assumptions about his new career. And you would have to be a fool to say real estate is the way to go right now!!! If you talk to a real estate agent they would tell you to go be a pilot and not be a realestate agent because the competition is fierce, the market is saturated, and everyone and there dog can obtain a realestate license. So don't get to high and mighty with your thinking. This industry isn't for those who aren't willing to make the sacrifices they need to get what they want. Whether that be here at pinnacle, and yes There are SEVERAL captains here who are lifers. They make well into the 100k range by being in either the training department working mon-fri, 8-5, or the line captain who has put in the time and now enjoys 16-18 days off a month, and spends more time with is family than a guy working 9-5. Or you can go to the majors (my brothers are at southwest 6 year and 4 year f.o.'s making over 130k a year. 16 day min off and enjoying life.) And dont say that is for the few and the lucky. My first brother didn't know anyone before he went there. He just went in like everyone else. And something else i will add is that here at pinnacle we have been losing around 25 captains a month. And when they all say good bye on the message board they aren't saying they are leaving the industry. they are saying i am going to fedex, ups, southwest, delta, orion, etc etc.... sorry to say your doomsday sh!t wont work on me. I see the green grass (especially when i go visit my brothers) and know there is light at the end of the tunnel, as long as i dont wuss out and go home crying becuase it was tough for a bit.

Good Life
 

I am sure that everyone here wishes you and your friends all the best, but I hope you understand that most will never reach the highs you have mentioned. I wish I was drinking whatever it is that you are because it is difficult to be able to delude myself that much anymore.

SkyHigh

Those are all options, but there is only so much you can legally fly, and if you still can't pay the bills you need to pickup a second job. Atleast that is how I am interpretating this second job, as a way to make ends meet while your at the bottom of the ladder.

SkyHigh,
I understand your situation from your posts and some people definitely eat the $hit sandwich many many times in this career but there are success stories. Some people give up (which everyone has their reasons for doing so), but once they do, then their chance is over. You say most won't reach the highs which may be true, but the fact of the matter is is that some people do. If you give up, someone else will be in that place. My point is is that SOMEONE is in that place making decent money, good schedules, etc. Whoever it is, it certainly is not someone who gave up.

when you think about it: outside of law, medicine, and tech stuff, where else are you gonna make 50'gs? skyhigh, please insert story of police officer. my point: for what we do, we make good money compared to rest of public. skyhigh, please insert text about how much we pay for our ratings( as we haven't heard it enough).

the only thing i am drinking is 100% motivation kool-aid.. its the best!! i know you don't want to delude yourself anymore,, you allowed yourself to fall into the "its to tough and i am not getting anywhere" attitude. As soon as you give up, no one will give you a chance if you don't give it to yourself. like freight puppy said, someone is there, someone is making good money, someone only has to work 13 days a month, why not me? And rest assured if everyone here puts in the time, has a good attitude (that shows), and doesn't give up, all will be where they want to be. Whether it is with pinnacle airlines as a 15 year captain, or moving on to the majors, everyone if they want will get their chance.

50'g is nothing. You can sell cell phones at the mall and make that. I have a friend who made 120k selling phones. Just talked to a baby formula rep the other day who made 100k plus. I have friends who are STILL pushing 200k with real-estate even in the downturn. The list go's on and on. Just my humble opinion though.

Yeah, but all that involves being a salesperson.

I couldn't sell water in a desert.:eek:

Some of us have hobbies outside of aviation, too...

$54,689 is what the average US worker is pulling in a year, with a 4-year degree. These people you mention are one of two things, they are the exception (a small percent of the population) or you made them up.

Your post reminds me of those MLM scams. The first (and practically only thing) the people talk about is how much money you can make and how much time off you can have as an "independent business owner". Hmmmm.

Anyway, I would agree that selling real estate right now would be tough. However, the quotes I've gotten on building my own home have come down almost 50% due to an increase in materials and labor (people are looking for work). The cost of land itself has dropped considerably. In other words, now (IMO) is the time to start building again - just like when the stock market takes a dive. Do you buy or sell? For example I bought $10k worth of funds after the large Feb drop. But that's another discussion.

I still think it's funny that you are poking fun at someone who can operate their own turboprop yet you are a pinnacle FO that makes <$25k/yr.

yeah..in a couple years that guy will be in my right seat and skyhigh will still be waxing himself...