Sky,
When we build our house, will you help me paint it? :)

I have to agree with Skyhigh on point one. Being ex-military probably helps with an aviation career. I disagree with having to have family in the business though. I have never once seen that as a prerequisite for being hired at a Major. Strike three are all issues that can affect you no matter what job you are trying for. But you should really know all that at the onset when you decide to make aviation your career, not when you are trying to get on at a Major airline and wondering why no one will hire you. I remember reading everything I could on the industry 17 years ago when I took my first flight lesson. I knew what was expected. Books like "Becoming an Airline Pilot" by Jeff Griffin, "Airline Pilot" by Future Airline Professionals of America, "Checklist for Success" by Cheryl Cage, Air Inc's "Questions", "The Neglected Art of Being Interviewed" by Medley. I could go on. The fact is, if you are well prepared, reasonably intelligent, network, and have a good attitude and decent personality, you have a good shot at a descent career at one of the Majors...

That's just my opinion though, I know there are a limited number of jobs and that not all pilots will make it out of the Regionals (if that is their goal). I wasn't ex-military, no family in the biz, and I even had a minor misdemeanor on my record I had to explain away. Not to mention a fluff degree from a State University. Having said that I'm enjoying my 9th year at a Major cargo airline.

I agree with a lot of what Skyhigh says, and I can sense his frustration. Unfortunately, that's life. Sometimes things don't work out the way we want them to no matter how hard we try...

You got it !!
 

I am not to fond of heights though. I hope it is only one story.:)

SkyHigh

Secret Society
 

For your sake lets hope not.

As for the anti-nepotism older captains have friends at other companies and they will trade kids to help each others son get hired.

Skyhigh

It's 2 but we'll get you some safe scaffolding, I promise. :p

NO such thing.

Based on one's current needs and opportunities, he may fall back on a different job than flying -- but never a better one.


I didn't fly F-16s, I'm the only guy in my family that ever thought about aviation, I'm not handsome or slender, and I don't play golf. Oh, and I'm just as old as anybody else my age.

On the other hand, I worked hard to finish my college degree. I get along well with people -- something I learned in kindergarten. I won't blame my misfortune on a "HR gal's bad day." And I'm smart enough to not drink alcohol and insert car keys into the ignition.

And yet, every time I go to "work" I get paid (quite well) to do something I absolutely love to do.


You've lumped some real obstacles -- that you've placed yourself (no college, DUI, failure to succeed in formal training) -- alongside some artificial barriers to make it appear that it's impossible to achieve a dream. The picture you paint is bleak, indeed, but it is grossly inaccurate. Success, and the attainment of a dream, is as achievable as ever. It takes hard work, determination, and aptitude. I'm not sure what your downfall was, but your failure doesn't require that everyone else with your dream will also fail.

I think you'd be better served, and your family would be happier, if you would concentrate on your successes. Take care of your family, and excel in the job that you have. Bitterness will sour everything you touch if you don't let it go. Your quest to spread the failure story isn't helping anyone.


Go love your family.



.

Success
 

Say aren't you living in the Middle East in order to keep your dream alive? To me that is the ultimate in desperation.

SkyHigh

SkyHigh: Let's not insult the folks that are serving OUR country. They don't do it out of "desperation" to keep their dream alive.

Good debate is fine but there are limits to how honorable people should be catagorized.

Starting? He's a bitter, wish he could have made something of his life, human. Read his post's and you wanta put a gun to your head.

I guess I got lucky. I am 35, NCD (no college degree), and was still able to land an airline job. Guess my looks got me in. Instead of college I started my own business, had a baby and earned my certificates and ratings while doing the duties required for both parenthood and business owner. If your smart, you'll have no prob getting what you want. I practically aced every written I have ever taken and never found them challenging while I have watched several college grads fail. The degree just gives the ailrine confidence that you will pass ground school. I think being a former Marine, business owner and parent shows dedication and honor to pursuing a job or dream. I laugh at the people that said" oh, you want to be a pilot? You need your degree.." NCD Baby!

My previous post was in response to the 3 strikes.

[QUOTE=SkyHigh;136398]Strike one Not an ex-military pilot. That is one strike against you.

Strike two You don't come from a prominent aviation family with strong ties in the airlines. That is strike two.

Strike three You have a DUI, are overweight, no college, older than most, took to long to upgrade, was fired during initial training at a regional, are not overly attractive, can not play golf, Lack people skills, HR gal was having a bad day and a huge number of other silly reasons that you can have your dreams rubbed out.

It is possible to get hired at a major with three strikes but not very likely. If anyone does a little research on new hire classes at the majors it becomes easy to find a pattern.

Skyhigh,
Clearly that is not the case at UPS.
1. They hire lots of folks from all backgrounds. Military not favored over civil career folks.
2. UPS could care less. They also have a nepotism rule that rules out family.
Many folks get hired with no letter of recommendation.
3. They hire 49-50 year olds. Several recently. Attractive has nothing to do with it, UPS doesn't play golf, you are supposed to give your life to Brown <g>
DUI's can kill you as well as a lack of people skills, but that is the same in lots of jobs.
Certainly there are things that help, they prefer a college degree. Will hire folks with commensurate experience without one, but is more rare these days.
They also hire folks who have a green card.
Is it a hard job to get? Yes, but it is not rigged.
When I mentor young folks interested in aviation (anything actually)
I like the Calvin Coolidge quote:
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."

I have seen many not persist, that is fine, everyone has different criteria and thresholds. Does not mean one cannot succeed in flying as a profession. Depends how bad your disease <g>.
I have seen way too many people have successful careers, despite challenges and seemingly overwhelming obstacles. Best to you!

I think he means guys flying for foreign carriers, not military.

When I was on probation it was really hard to get a "strike" against you. The company honored the union contract and all was well.

Whew. I just looked out the window to double-check. Sometimes a good night's sleep can cloud the memory. :)


Sorry, Skyhigh -- you've tilted at yet another windmill. I'm living in my hometown, in the heart of the Mid-South. I don't understand why you can't just read what I said without resorting to a lame attempt to ridicule me personally. I think you've got some resentment issues, and it's really not pretty to see you share them here.

Some of the "strikes" you mentioned in your post are certainly beyond your control (your family heritage). Others are obstacles that require hard work and determination to overcome (a college education). Yet others are the result of stupidity on your part (DUI). Take responsibility, and move on. Your kids deserve that in a dad.

Desperation? Study that face in the mirror when you shave in the morning carefully. You can't change the past, but you can control your own actions from this point on. You don't have to look so desperate -- it's your choice.





.

Sorry
 

Sorry, I must have you confused with someone else. :o

SkyHigh

No
 

Don't do it you have too much to live for !!!! Like upgrade. :)

SkyHigh

Don't really know what you mean by that...but I'm where I want to be for the next 25 or so years.

[QUOTE=desertdog71;136418]Yeah since pulling down 6 figures and flying boxes is the only way to be happy. :rolleyes:

You hang around this forum for some reason. What is it?[/QUOTE]

you took the words right out of my mouth. Besides, what else are we supposed to do? Well I guess we can become police officers!:rolleyes:

Well I dont have any family in any aviation, I do have a college education, I am in shape and actually good looking, I play golf (not very good) and besides a speeding ticket no other "strikes" I am 26 i think if I do this long enough I might be able to get on with a legacy/major etc...........

Chances
 

I would say that your odds are good. At least one in three, however the current average age for getting hired at a legacy is near 40 and by then no one will want to work for a legacy anymore anyway.

SkyHigh

Fat drunk and stupid's no way to go through life son.

I have to agree with you on this one, but I don't think this is specific to the aviation world. Personally I take some comfort in that fact that fat/drunk/stupid people have more obstacles to overcome before they can fly my family around the world.

Do you happen to have any numbers that back up the hiring age for the Majors and Legacys are around 40??

Kit Darby
 

I haven't been to Kit Darbys site in many years but back in 2002 when I use to still subscribe to those publications the average age of new hires at the majors/legacies was 37. Now it could be much higher or even less. I don't really know. I can't imagine that is would be less unless they were passing up a generation of pilots who have patiently waited at the regionals since 9/11.

If the retirement age is raised to 65 you can bet that whatever it is now the age will raise by 5 years.

SkyHigh

I agree with this number too. I've seen similar stats.

It kind of makes sense...

Most (2/3 ?) ex-military guys that go to airlines as early as they can get hired at age 32.
Some (1/3 ?) who stay to get their retirement first would start at age 43.

Civilians (who don't have a family connection):
College: 5 years
CFI: 2 years
Freight: 1 year
Regional: 6 years
Heavy on-demand Cargo: 4 years
Major: Age 36, assuming you started at age 18 and didn't do anything else...most civilian pilots did something else somewhere along the line (military, masters degree, office job, surf bum) so age 40 is not an unrealistic average.

Sounds reasonable, was more curious than anything else on how this number was produced. I had viewed things a bit differently as in you would CFI and go Regional or Freight, not both.

Then never thought of the Heavy On-Demand Cargo, what types of companies would those typically be?

The only number I think that may be off is the 5-years of colleges, but that does not create a drastic change.

I would definately agree that with the raise to age 65, it will increase the average new hire age by about 5 years.

Some folks do college in 4, some take 7 years.

The night cargo-to-regional path is not required today due to demand, but historically it has been very common, several of my friends had to do night cargo before getting a regional job (I considered myself lucky to go from CFI to regional).

Heavy cargo would be Kalitta, Polar/Atlas, CAT for example (some of these places are NOT good career destinations). Also heavy 121 charter such as World. Often a stint at a lower-tier heavy operator will get you the call at a major. It's also realistic to become a check airman or regional chief pilot at a regional and go from there directly to a major.

New Hire Age
 

In the early 80's there was an accepted maximum age of 30 to get hired at the majors. If they raise the retirement to 65 and new hires bump to 45 plus it means that you will have to work very hard and very long for next to no money. You will be in your 50's before reaching a place where most would finally be comfortable.

This career would make more sense if most could expect to get hired while still young enough to get someplace worthwhile.

Skyhigh

Not an ex military pilot: my dad, grandfather and all my uncles who flew/fly for American, United, ATA, Pan Am, Delta, Net Jets....Need I add more? Being an ex-mil is not a strike against you. It may help but it certainly wont doom your career!

No aviation ties: fortunately, I am from a family that goes back in aviation to the 1940's. However, there are PLENTY of people on this forum who have ZERO family ties with aviation that landed outstanding jobs. Job preference is a personal thing and I applaud everyone here who is where they want to be. Takes a lot of hard work!

strike three: I am definitely with you on some of those but being overweight certainly is not one of them. I've seen some RJ/Legacy pilots who look like they are going to drop dead of an MI any minute. The people skills is a definite must, no doubt there. The rest I sense as sarcasm because nobody in my family knows how to play or even gives a damn about golf.....Grandfather: 40 years at American, never played golf. Dad: 30 years collectively between National, Pan Am and United, wacked a ball once and broke the club over his knee. :D


By the way, I hope you get the job at Alaska. As much as I disagree with some of your postings, I'll be pulling for ya pal! I use to talk to Alaska pilots all the time and they love it there!

Skyhigh-

I think I speak for many people here when I say that you are absolutely pitiful.

No one here feels sorry for you, since you CHOSE to not follow (literally) you dream around the country. Do I want to live in CO (I'm from TX), away from all of my family, friends and girlfrend? Hell no, but I do it b/c I love to fly.

Your bitching has no home here anymore.

Rather than allow you to quit posting your garbage, I am utilizing the ignore function for the first time.

Opinion
 

I am not here to make people feel sorry for me. My opinions have every right to be here just as the republicans have every right to be in congress still.

My aim is to bring others to the light and to bring about information that might just save a few. To an ardent smoker anti-smoking advertisements might seem negative. I however am not a negative person and my message is not negative either. It is simply in opposition to yours.

I am a positive person and would like others to know that there is life outside of flying and it is good. I choose to have a real life, to raise a family while living with them, and to financially prosper. An Aviation life is often in contrast to those goals and not everyone is ready to throw their lives away for an empty flight deck.

SkyHigh

that is a subjective phrase. you are like a broken record.

Positive, eh?

Positive
 

Smoking causes cancer. To you that might seem like a negative statement against smoking. To others it is an effort to save lives. I am not here to wave a flag for how great aviation is. My mission is to focus on the other side.

I am a positive person who lives a normal and fulfilling life. Others here have accused me of being a negative Nelly who lives under a bridge and scares school children. My opinions are contrarian to most others here but that does not mean that I am negative, only in opposition.

SkyHigh

Subjective
 

I would not say that it is subjective. Re-read some of my posts on the "time value of Money". Consider the costs of education, training and early years of low paid experience building, then apply the average progression of a civilian flying career to their early 40's. Don't forget to throw in a layoff, furlough or two. Not subjective at all. The truth is an unbroken record.

SkyHigh

Now if you are merely getting tired of the subject then perhaps we could post about horses or something else? :)

There's no question you are making an iffy investment to get the requisite training and experience needed for a flying career unless you make it to the majors. That's why I am staying out altogether, unless regionals up the payscale so much that it's not such a hit to leave my current $50+ job. I am not thrilled to push pencils but the truth is it's a peaceful lifestyle and you get to go home at night. I tell myself when regionals are willing to pay $40k to start, which is a big if, then I will get serious about applying. Too many people want to fly for a living for current payscales to be on par with the amount of training and education it requires.

He hangs around this forum because he couldn't make it. It would be the same as me going on the Target department store forum and bashing that career because when I was 16 years old I hated stocking shelves there.

Opinions
 

I merely provide a second opinion. I am here because I enjoy the comradre, like writing and miss my aviation friends. My positions are real and the detractors are too. In time you will begin to understand what you are up against as well.


SkyHigh

I'm not sure what SH said to tick everyone off, but I too am a little disillusioned by the career. After flight school in the Army in 1990, misc aviation jobs, ASA since 97, I find myself looking for security outside the cockpit.
In Sept of 2000 I made jet captain, was finishing up a long overdue BS from ERAU (extended campus). I told myself just one year in the left seat of the jet, I'd have the resume complete; military, school, 121 jet PIC, and save up a little cash for first year pay at a legacy. Then Sept 2001 came along and 19 *********s change my career, maybe my life forever.
For everyone that thinks that the regionals are a quick stepping stone the big leagues, think again. This industry has a loooonng history, of feast or famine. It's a gamble. A good one for some, and some cases just not worth it.
Stick