MAJOR news about 1500 hour rule change
 

I just got done with a lecture at University of North Dakota and decided to ask the professor a question about this new proposal. He was the Master Executive Council Chairman at American eagle along with being the Department Chair in the aviation department up at UND, Very respected guy within the aviation industry.

He has been in communication with people in Washington D.C and he told me that probably within 6-12 month there will be at-least a 250 hour reduction to the hours. This would mean that for us at UND we will go down to 750 hours.

He said he along with the lawmakers are about 80% sure it will be passed. He seemed very confident as well.

He went on to say the UND will be reducing students accepted next year due to the major shortage of CFI's available. Things are gonna get a little messy up here. He said the average student who will get accepted into the program will have to have at-least a 22 ACT along with 3.0GPA which is a big step up from before. The industry is about to have a massive issue with staffing CFI's..... Also mentioned even if UND offered 50K to flight instructors why would they stay when they can clear that easily at a regional and later on major? sh*t is gonna hit the fan in my opinion


Also he mentioned legacy carriers have been approaching UND about putting together a pathway program direct to the major airline. He said the discussion was started roughly at the start of this school year. He said even though this is just the beginning of the talks that he would not be surprised if we saw a pathway program setup within the next 1-4 years.


Let me know what you guys think.

-John

If true, that would be terrible for pilots and aviation in general.

The CFI's that are coming out of these programs are usually the weakest in training anyways. Why would we lessen the requirements even more?

I would much rather lower the requirements for those that went and flew 135, in a real airplane, in a variety of airspaces and conditions. CFI's typically have very little experience in busy airspace (and different areas of the country), little experience in bad weather, and fly very simple airplanes.

There are CFI's going to the airlines right now that have zero hours in actual IMC, have zero hours in a class B airport, and have only 25 hours in a multiengine airplane. 1000 hours at the airlines later, they are captains. Some have never deiced an airplane, never had an emergency, never navigated around a real thunderstorm, and are now captains of a regional jet.

Many CFI's have flown the same hour, over and over, 1500 times. The good ones go out and get real experience, but many do not.

Exactly.... makes me frustrated beyond belief, I also asked if pay would be changed and he said no not necessarily. Also mentioned that this is about a 6 month fix for the regional airlines. After that the industry still has to wait for people to get the hours necessary.

Of course they would be confident in that because their ability to keep the pilot mill going puts food on the table. Your school wants the hours dropped. I hope it doesnt, we already have low time guys in the left seat but introducing low time FOs again would be unsafe.

I mentor a guy who has a Masters Degree in Aerospace Engineering. He has forgotten more about airplanes than most of us will ever know.

Yet someone with an Associates Degree in Aviation from some low tier school can get hired with 250 hours less than him.

In my mind, lower all mins to 1,000 hours (maybe keep military training at 750). This carve out for special interest Aviation universities is BS!

Why would the school want the numbers lowered? Think about it, the more hours required the more money they make per student. plus they get to keep CFI's at they're school.

Maybe I'm not looking at it correctly.

I'm an instructor at my airline. Most of the pilots that I have experienced over the last 2 years, SUCK! No, they really SUCK! Their attitude is another topic for discussion. Automation is definitely keeping passengers safe in this world of risk management.

The schools have been lobbying for the reduction.

Why would anyone spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for their flight training at a major university when most part 61 schools turn out pilots that are as good or better (depending on the school) for thousands of dollars less? The schools are using the reduced minimums as a selling point to get students to waste their money.

Just to clarify my flight training costs is around $56,000. UND is extremely cheap, with my financial aid I only paid $5,000 in tuition (per semester) including room & board. Thats pretty damn good. total I'll come out getting my training and a 4 year degree roughly at $75,000. So not quiet hundreds of thousands of dollars, but I still get your point

This^^

Follow the money.

You mean those people who all they have done is fly from point A to point B everyday that they don't even know to pitch down to recover from a stall? Yipee, entering training you have a little bit better understanding how a turbine works and know how to call for Deicing. That doesn't make you a safer pilot. It's not like the Part 135 pilots are blowing CFIs away in training, that hasn't been the case at all.

Not to be that guy, but the level of training up here is 10X better than my friends training at the local FBO. I have much larger knowledge of flying along with aviation than my buddies with the same amount of hours as I do. Not knocking 61 training because we all know it's a better way to save a ton of money, but there is a major difference in training and the education process

The reason schools want the hours dropped is because like said earlier it’s a selling gimmick to attract more students. They have the biggest fleet of 172’s in the world. If they can’t get students through their doors than planes will be sitting not making money. A lot of students there get their hours elsewhere and not instructing. Once a student gets to commercial/cfi they don’t keep paying for hours at school till they get the 1,000! They find like everyone else a job flying.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You forgot about the fact that they are making acceptance rates lower next year due to the ratio of CFI's to students. We can't handle more students than we have right now.

They say that but with the amount of planes they have I doubt they’re going to lower it by much or they will have to get rid of inventory!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How many foreign students are they teaching vs undergrads? And what percentage of foreign students become cfis vs undergrads.

What does that $56k get you? CP ASEL/AMEL and 250 hours?

Well, you are that guy. When you get to a regional, I hope you let go of this mentality and fast. You don't know how to fly a 172 any better than someone from the local airport. Not that that's saying literally. anything. at. all.

The guys who have trouble at the 121 level have attitude issues. Seems like you're on your way there

You sound like a marvelous instructor and Omni is lucky to have you sir

That is what the school tells you. It is amazing how many Riddle kids think that they are the greatest thing ever, until they get to training and the guy sitting next to them got his ratings at a little "mom and pop shop" and flew single pilot cargo for the last year and is 10x better of a pilot.

There is absolutely nothing challenging at all about flying a 172, and is not a measure of what a good pilot is.

I had a university kid sitting in the right seat the other day that didn't know how to turn the lights on at an outstation airport when the tower was closed. He never flew when it was dark or IMC when he was in college, other than the required minimums.

You're in for a rude awakening when or if you get through real world training. Little advice.....park the
"I know more than you" attitude. Otherwise, you'll get your a** handed to you on the way out the door.

Try doing a search before posting, third time a thread has been made about this same topic... Look two or three threads below this one, I posted the exact details released by the FAA.

Nothing set in stone yet just possible reductions. Won't solve the long-term hiring issue, just may offer a year or two reprieve as the current CFI pool moves on to regionals faster. Certainly a step in the wrong direction, but I wouldn't in any way call this a MAJOR change.

Now there is a MAJOR change being discussed, and if you read the thread I posted there are more details on it. It would reduce the hourly requirement for everyone with an aviation degree or from military to 500. Much more serious change that would have a greater negative effect on the industry and pay rates.

That is extremely troubling..god forbid the day the automation doesn’t work as published and other external factors are going on that necessitate basic flying skills..

As someone who went to a Pt61 and then later on flew with Pt141 guys I would actually have to agree with him. They spend 4 years on this stuff where lots of the Pt61 guys may spend less than a year on everything. The Pt 141 guys have a much deeper breadth of knowledge.

But there is no need to be cocky about it.

Bingo.... it almost doesn't make sense to get 135 experience prior to going to 121 world. And that is ashame. They need to lower the 135 requirements if they are going to keep the 1500 hour rule.

That's counterproductive though - Most 135 flying is much more demanding than 121. What you really DO NOT want is pilots flying single pilot 135 IFR with less experience than what's required now.

Ding ding ding. You guys are advocating to put a 250 hour wonder in single-pilot IMC night icing thunderstorm windshear engine-failure crud when you could be putting them with a mentor in a reliable aircraft in a much more controlled environment. Which way is more likely to result in fatalities? I'm not ignoring the fact that the airliner has a lot more souls on board than the cargo Caravan. But our goal should be to avoid all accidents rather than culling out the weak in the 135 environment.

As to the experience reduction: there are strong 500 hour pilots and there are weak 5000 hour pilots. The hours don't correlate to skill. They only roughly correlate to how many different scenarios and how mature a pilot's decision-making skills may be. This is primarily derived from aptitude and from the quality of training received. All self-interest aside, if the outcome really is to lower the total time requirement for an ATP it also needs to include real changes to the training requirements. The ATP-CTP is a step forward, but may not be enough to cover the lack of real-world experience in a low-time pilot's background. There will need to be a requirement for increased hours in initial 121 training to make up the deficiency.

Like not realizing the 777 auto-throttles are disengaged on approach and then stalling short of the runway? Maybe an-initio would fix that?

I can tell you the pass rate between the two groups in the 121 world is indistinguishable. The difference mainly being that you can tell who went to the 141 school bc they think they're better for it. They aren't. Even though they'll tell you they "basically have a type rating in the CRJ200". lololol

The valuable stuff comes from what you do after you get your certificates while building time

Can you elaborate?

"Deeper breadth"?

The term is "depth and breadth of knowledge", meaning "deep and wide".

Does this financial aid involve loans with interest? If so you're not exactly "getting the price down."

There's more to it than that. If you don't have the money upfront to pay for your 61 flight training you have to factor in the lost wages for the extra time you're not working. It would've taken me 2-3 years to get the money to get my ratings outside of a university, then another year or two to complete them all. Assuming you're going airlines that's tens of thousands in lost wages.

How much is an hour of dual in 172 at UND?

I paid $200 an hour in the cirrus at Purdue. FBO was close to 170 an hour with an instructor in a 172. Not a horrible markup.

If I remember right was about $120 an hour wet when i was there a few years back. Though, correct me if I’m wrong. It’s been a few years.

Don't slay the messenger.

It is an absolute truth.

Does that include the instructor? it's only 110 for an old 172 at my flight school. Plus 30 an hour for instructor. Part 141

Instructor included.

$181/hr

$127.5/hr wet for the plane, $53.5/hr for the instructor.

Punctuation goes inside the quotes bud.