What will a 600hr CFI get you..
 

With so many threads about low hiring mins, I wanted to share an experience I just had.

I wanted to get checked out on a C172 at the local FBO so I went on the standard "Checkride" with the duty CFI. He was in his mid to late 20s with 600hrs TT. He's gotten his ratings at a 90 day pilot factory in FL.

We did the standard slow flight, stalls, landings etc... When that was done I wanted to shoot a couple approaches to get used to the plane's instrument setup. The instuctor seemed a little nervous, but said ok. The first VOR went ok, but every time we were vectored through the clouds, he was terrified. Next approach I wanted to practice a holding entry then follow up with an ILS. As Norfolk approach cleared us into holding, we went IMC and he started to panic. We were IMC for a few minutes and started to take some light rime. At this point he told me he had never seen icing before and was starting to lose the picture. To see were this was going, I asking him what did he want to do. he completely froze up.. didn't think to call approach, fly the aircraft out... or anything.. just complete panic. I made a quick call to approach, they dropped us below the ceiling, then we finished the approach for a full stop. We've all been there.. My point is, the first time should not be with 50 passengers behind you... TSA just lowered their mins to 250 TT.. Hope that works out :rolleyes: ..

That's sad... and scary. Doubt he would make it through anyone's sim interview.

Were you flying out of ORF or PHF?

Just a quick question...what were you doing in icing conditions in a C-172 for!?!?!? Do you have a death wish...just curious? Maybe the instructor was terrified that you were in those conditions and should not have been there. Just a guess...

People keep commenting on how their stick and rudder skills are good enough at 500 hrs... it's not the VMC pattern flying that you're getting paid for.

wow dude, calm down, a 172 isnt going to fall out of the sky from a little bit of ice, a quick climb or descent should fix things. You just have to always have an out. I'm no cowboy, but this situation doesn't sound dangerous to me, assuming the poster had more IFR experience than the CFI.

You don't go into KNOWN icing in a 172, but casually finding it isn't a death wish. It requires some action on the pilot's part, which is my point... Also, he's the instructor and and the PIC.. his call... (I'm an ATP with over 5k hrs, but wanted to let him run his cockpit.. I just needed the check in the block). His panic was from never seeing it before.. Lack of experience. It's simple enough.. if you get into it, get out.. A simple call to ATC or just do it on your own and explain later. Either way.. my point is, it was his plane. His situational awareness was non existant and his ability to calmly react to the situation did not exist. Trust me, the situation wasn't dire.. If you think some light rime on a spring day going in and out of the clouds is terrifying conditions... you haven't flown in the Northeast much. I was told he was one of their better instructors before the flight...

Living in North Dakota...I pretty sure that a 172 isn't going to fall out of the sky with a bit of ice...and I know how to get out of it...my comment was toward the instructors reaction and toward the persons posting of low time pilots.

It just seems odd that a person with a lot of hours would make the descision to go up into icing conditions in a non-icing certified aircraft and in the same sentence down a guy for freaking out for going into IMC.

If I were a person on the outside looking in...I would say neither of them have the experience to fly in the airlines regardless of there experience level or the amount of hours that they have. Just my opinion...

Side note: I am not saying that the person that posted this is not a good pilot...just commenting on the whole situation

Seem like you went up there to make the kid feel bad. You probably intimidated him with you 1000's. When I was an instructor and would ask my student if they went flying with someone with more time than them would would be in control, they would always say the person with the most time. He probably trusted that you wouldnt put him in a situation like that and didnt know how to react to it.

Funny...that's not how I read it...

:) You're funny.. I'm an airline captain. When you're on an inst flight plan, you follow ATC's vectors, even if it should go through a cloud. If you find ice in that cloud that isn't suppose to be there, and your plane isn't suppose to be in icing... you get out.. very simple.. Hopefully I'm not moving too fast for you here :rolleyes:

Slow down pilgram...aren't you the one that was going to get check out...meaning it was your responsibility to demonstrate that you can act as PIC in the mighty 172. My opinion again is that maybe both of you should have check out that icing conditions could have existed. OK he freaked out...but you also made the descision to go up in it. Meaning your experience level with icing conditions is the same as his in IMC conditions. So are hours of a pilot really a factor or is the experience level what really counts?

Not the case at all. The conduct of the cockpit was not about who knows what... not into playing games in the cockpit.. Before we flew he knew it was his plane. The whole flight he was very comfortable (until he was out of his element in the VFR pattern).

You seem to miss the point of the post. It's about having the level of experience it takes to fly for a 121 outfit and how some extra time prior to making the jump could be helpful.

I don't think this one panicky guy is representative of "the 600hr CFI" or other 600 hr pilots. Some are definitely more experienced even at the same amount of TT, some could be even worse than this guy. I had several hours of single pilot IFR in the NE by the time I reached 400-500. I have a CFI friend who is at 800 TT and has 25 actual hours just because of the region he teaches in. It just all depends on each individual.

IM AN AIRLINE CAPTAIN...WHOOOOPEEEE!!!! You follow ATC vectors....a simple "unable" would have worked. There is a simple instrument in the cockpit called an outside air temperature tube...if it below zero or somewhere close...your going to get icing. You know you probably did scare the poor kid with your attitude making him think you are some big AIRLINE CAPTAIN as you put it...

I got the feeling this thread was going to get hijacked

Easy V1... you're missing the point of all this... He didn't know how many hours I had or what I did.. OAT was above freezing.. The post isn't aimed at you.. or is it? No beef with you here :rolleyes: You are funny...

So you think doing 500 hour more of checkout flight s where his presence is required for company and insurance purposes will make him more experience. I think that after about 300 or so hours of instructing, you are just sitting there anyway. I dont see what kind of experience will come from doing more checkout flights, slowflight, and turn-around-the-point. You could have flown with a CFI that had 4000 hours and had the same reaction...More time can come from doing nothing...(Mx flight, ferry flights, and checkout flights) Doesnt mean he will be more prepared with more time

I wasn't trying to hijack this thread...I just seems stupid to me that people are downing other pilots because they have little hours but you have big time "AIRLINE CAPTAINS" making descisions to flying through a cloud and its below zero...

I say if a person is smart (and I mean smart) enough to make it to the airline level...let them prove it and if they prove it let them fly.

The point is this instructor didn't have enough experience. Enough said, end topic, BoilerUP FTW.

Why do you hate Cruiseclimb so much ??/ :confused:

Dude, you need to relax. Cruiseclimb is just making a point about 600 hour pilots. If you do not like his comment, state your reasons why and move on. The bottom line is that you both disagree on this topic. Let it be.

do you guys think it would be an experience builder to have CFII fly in a known ice A/C to get some time in the ice and IMC?

I don't hate cruiseclimb...how about this (MUAAAHHH!!! to cruisy) You happy I kissed and made up.:D

I'm happy :D

How many of you folks picked up ice on basic piston trainers? I have. Each time I reported it to ATC and requested a different altitude, and *viola* ice disappears. I even picked up ice on a Warrior once in VMC *gasp* when the OAT was 2 degrees *double gasp* from a light mist.

When you start knocking four inches of rime off the unbooted leading edge of a Seneca (as I watched somebody do one night, not that I'd ever recommend getting yourself in that situation) then you can start crapping your pants...not from a slight trace on the temp probe or struts in a Cessna.

Its not a slam but a simple fact that folks that train in Florida often have little actual instrument experience...and even less (if any) time dealing with ice. Doesn't mean they aren't good pilots, its just a deficiency in experience most from that background have and need to gain in order to become good professional pilots.

/rant off

No... not intentionally. Just time in IMC will build your confidence.

Cruise climb is exactly right. There are many times that you will encounter very light icing in the clouds that is not expected. This is not necessarily dangerous if you know what to do at those times. Freezing up is not the thing to do! This also illustrates one of the other problems that I have with the wonder schools, as well as many flight instructors...they have a tendency to train pilots as monkeys, instead of forcing them to think outside of the box. Flaps down at this point, speed "x" at this point, gear down at this time, any amount of ice equals death, etc. The problem with this is that it does not take into account the fact that the perfect scenario rarely presents itself in the aviation world, and there comes a time when you need to keep your speed up on final for following traffic, or make a short approach, and the like.

I remember flying with a person once who questioned me for putting the gear down before the flaps when approaching an airport visually and asked to keep the speed up until 5 mile final. It completely blew his mind when I explained to him that the gear can be extended at a higher speed which will allow you to slow down for the proper flap speed. I also had to explain why I didn't request the approach flap setting at the published max speed for the setting. (this was a seperate incident) He seemed very surprised that aircraft configuration changes at the maximum allowable speed can be very uncomfortable for the pax as well as completely unnecessary. This type of knowledge comes from experience.

Please don't get me wrong, I too attended one of these wonder schools pre 9-11, but my first paying pilot job after that was sightseeing. Heavy, hot and high made me really look back and think about the way that I was taught. Having to learn to improvise in order to make an airplane fly was not the best idea with paying passengers in the back and no other pilot in the plane. It worked out but I can't say it was the safest thing to do, and that was only six passengers in a C-207!

What I have learned looking back is that most people can be taught to fly a fancy big airplane, but it takes experience to actaually operate it correctly in the environment. It is great to be able to learn from the guy in the left seat, but keep in mind, you are both there to do a job, and his isn't to be a flight instructor.

Thanks Boiler... You usually find a better way than most of getting a point across.. No offense to lower time guys in this post.... Just sharing an experience.

While not approved for the 172, it's hard to operate in the real world without picking up a little non-forecast light rime on occasion. No cause for panic, just monitor the accumulation and leave icing conditions by the most expeditious means. Severe accumulation might be cause to drop below the deck and land on a road or something, but 172's can carry a pretty good load of even clear ice in a crisis, just keep the power and speed up.

I doubt they departed into known or forcast icing.

sorry guys...i didnt mean to ramp off on cruiseclimb...(didnt have my sugar for the day)...but can you REALLY put every low time pilot in the same category? Yeah you may be able to put most of them in that category...but there are some really sharp men and women out there that I would fly with anyday. Not just because they are good stick and rudder pilots, but because they sharp individuals with good CRM skills, aeronautical knowledge and all around fun to fly with.

Side note: Boiler Up good comment

When I got my instrument rating I had about 250 hours, and the very next day I rented a plane and flew a solo cross-country on a day with layered stratus and 600-1000' ceilings pretty much over the entire midwest. I did a VOR approach to minimums at KCMI, landed, then took back off and did the ILS to KLAF.

My instructor and many friends thought I was NUTS for doing that but I knew I wouldn't be able to get any practical real-world experience sticking to the syllabus at Purdue and I would never be sharper than right after the checkride. I had to take it upon myself to gain the experience (and confidence) I knew I would need for my future and after that have never been wary about single-engine IFR.

Not saying such an approach is for everybody...but it worked for me.

Ah boy rickair just when I calmed down you had to say something...just playing...LOL...I know point taken and received:D

Panic in IMC? I love flying in the clouds. I need to experience a little icing though. I don't have a deathwish but I'd like to know how the plane feels with a bit of rime. TSA hiring at 250TT, eh? Holy crap! That's loooow time there, but hey, they were hiring private pilots back in the 60's at UAL.

Ok, glad we have that settled.

Now, may I ask why it is that thousand hour professional pilots are routinely required to do complete checkouts to simply rent a 172?

That 9-letter word you're thinking I shall not accept without sufficient explanation!

Insurance.

...wait, that's 9 letters...

THE MAN.

That's better!:D

Maybe because the flare is 5 feet off the ground rather than 500. Just a guess...LOL

Well the new hires at TSA won't have to worry about that...as long as they can remember where the heck that darn deice panel is..:p

I guess it depends on the part of the country that he did his training in. I am friends with a CFII here in my area and I dont think he's ever had an icing encounter while training. He's the type that isnt shy to go find some actual to do training in and has a couple of thousand hours of dual given.

I did exactly the same when I got my instrument rating, only I had about 200 hours. Shot approaches solo in IMC all summer long in basic old trainers with the bare minimum of instruments and of course no automation. I had an AI fail on me once, and an airspeed indicator fail on another occasion, though both times not in IMC. Those were pretty run down trainers! Looking back I think I was crazy.

The point is everyone is different and gets to the same place eventually, though in different ways.